50:5 Stop getting buried by search engines

Lee:

Welcome to the Trailblazer FM podcast. This is your host, Lee, and in today's show, we have the one, the only, it's Mr. Jason Barnard. How are you? Fine, sir.

Jason:

I'm fine. Thank you very much.

Lee:

Excellent.

Jason:

And my favorite intro is yours.

Lee:

Right.

Jason:

My second favorite intro to a podcast is mine. A quick hello and we're good to go. Welcome to Lee's show.

Lee:

I love it. Can we now record that and just make that our new intro?

Jason:

Yep, absolutely.

Lee:

If anyone is great at mixing, let's get that mixed together with a really cool track. That would be incredible. Well, Jason, thanks so much for being on the show. We can tell already we're going to have lots of fun with you. But for the folks that don't know who you are, could you just give us a little bit of a short biography of who you are, what it is you do, and maybe something that people don't know about you.

Jason:

Right. Well, who I am and what I do is actually what the brand SERP is all about, the search engine results page for your brand or your personal brand. If you want to know who I am, what I do, which audience I serve, and where I'm an expert, search my name, Jason Barnard, J-A-S-O-N, B-A-R-N-A-R-D. You will see my brand, SERP. That is my Google business card. That will explain to you that in the 90s, I was in a punk, folk group. No way. Before that, I was at Liverpool University in a blues band trying to do a degree. After that, I was in Paris. I joined a band in Paris, played music there for 10 years. Then I was a blue dog in a cartoon in Mauritius for 10 years doing the voices and the songs and the music and the scripts. Then I became a digital marketer and now I am the brand SERP guy at Kalicube in the south of France.

Lee:

That is the most epic biography I think I've ever heard.

Jason:

Thank you. It's cool, isn't it? I basically spent my whole life just doing things I thought would be fun.

Lee:

Yeah. That's what we say, isn't it? Do things that are fun that you really enjoy and you look extremely happy as a result of it. I'm encouraged by that. The fact that you've just said essentially Google me because that is what I do. I guess let's start with that. For the people that don't really know what Brand SERP is, could you give us the layman's terms for what brand SERP optimization is?

Jason:

Yeah, Brand SERP optimization is making that search engine results page for your name, company or personal name, as accurate, positive and convincing as possible because that search result is your Google business card. The reason I say that is in fact, because I used to go into client meetings, I would give them my physical business card. They would put it in the bin or in a drawer, never look at it, and they would just google my name. The problem for me was that when they googled my name in 2012, it said, Jason Barnard is a cartoon blue dog. But I was trying to sell them digital marketing services. I thought the only way I'll be able to sell them anything is if I can get Google to say that I'm an expert digital marketer. I set about changing that representation that Google had of me to becoming Jason Barnard, the digital marketer who is incredibly authoritative, trustworthy, credible, expert, and experienced, which is Google's EEAT.

Lee:

That's amazing. Every time you say a Blue Dog, I keep thinking of Bluey, but I assume this is a different Blue Dog character, of which again, we will Google and I'll pop a link in the show notes if anyone's interested. Yeah.

Jason:

No, Bluey is great, but Boowa, B-O-O-W-A, is loads better. Boowa was my Blue Dog. And the reason he's better is not because it's me, it's because he had a yellow koala as a best friend. So any blue dog with a yellow koala as a best friend is unbeatable in Blue Dog World.

Lee:

I can see a lot of people binging in the future. Well, it would be really cool to understand or unpick what some of those keys were for you. As somebody who recognized that you show up as a blue dog on Google, what were some of the key steps you took to change that?

Jason:

I think the really, really, really obvious thing is you start with your own website. First thing is make sure you're projecting a clear message on your own website. At Kalicube, we now call that the entity home. I'm an entity. I'm a person. You're an entity. You're a person. The company is an entity. The entity home is where Google looks for information about the entity from the entity itself. The first thing is to get your house in order. I started with my website and I said, Jason Barnard is a digital marketer. He has worked with many clients. He writes for Search Engine Journal, Search Engine Land. He's appeared on Semrush Webinar, bloody, bloody, blah, on the first page to say this person is credible. I also used my history of having created multiple companies to "credibleise", if that's a real word, myself in terms of my business acumen. That's the first thing. Most companies you will find haven't even looked at how their homepage appears when you search their name. They certainly haven't looked at the rich site links, which are the multiple site links underneath that allow people to access different areas of your site.

Jason:

I worked with Yoast on theirs and Joost de Valk of Yoast fame, changed their process within the Yoast plugin because before they no-indexed the login page for security reasons, and I pointed out to him, actually, they're really useful for the rich site links because people want to log in to your site. So now, from their perspective, they advise people, if you have a login system using WordPress, you have to index that login page. Those pages in those rich site links are hugely important because it allows Google to help people into your website at the place they need to be. So it saves a couple of clicks and we all know in terms of sales, the more clicks, the worse. Those couple of clicks saved are hugely important.

Lee:

What are the steps you need to take? Because there's the website, but is there anything else you can be doing? I hear people talking about LinkedIn profiles, Google, my business things, and all sorts of stuff, and it just seems like a bit of a minefield for me. Are there any further steps we can take, including maybe getting rid of that particular thing where it says that Jason is a blue dog. How did you specifically get rid of that? Would that just not get bumped down a little bit?

Jason:

Yeah. No, that's a great multipart question. Number one is it is a minefield, which is why I built Kalicube Pro, which is my SaaS platform. But I actually only built it for myself and my clients because what it does is it figures out what you need to do in what order, what the priorities are. It's no longer a minefield. I've removed the minefield aspect of it. It tells me things like, focus on LinkedIn, focus on Twitter, focus on YouTube. Don't bother with music brains. Don't bother with Instagram in my case. It immediately tells me there's no point in me making lots of effort there. As you can imagine there, as I explain it, it's designing my digital marketing strategy because it's telling me where I need to focus. It's telling me where does Google understand your audience hangs out and you need to go and hang out there so you can stand where they're looking. Then when you're standing where they're looking on those different platforms, offer to them the solution to the problem that they currently have, and then tell them what the next steps are to work with you. Then what I do is package all that for Google, repurpose it on my own website or SEO it on the third-party website, Facebook, Twitter, YouTube, whatever.

Jason:

I get my SEO off the back of this digital marketing strategy, which in turn was built on the back of Google's opinion, of the world's opinion of me, that I can see when I look at my brand SERP.

Lee:

Okay, my brain just did several flips.

Jason:

I'm sorry.

Jason:

But as you can see that the thing is I look at Google, how it represents me, and I can immediately see where I'm going wrong, where I'm going right, where I should focus.

Lee:

Right.

Jason:

Because google sees everything more than anybody else. So it's summary of who I am, what I do, how I serve my audience is hugely informative. What it shows my audience when they google my name is what's most helpful, valuable, and relevant to them. Those are the places I need to focus. And if, for example, it's showing YouTube, but I haven't got any videos, then I need to think again about why I haven't got any videos and that's something I should be doing.

Lee:

I'm about to google my name because I think this will definitely help. I've had to put myself out there as Lee Matthew Jackson absolutely everywhere because Lee Jackson is a ridiculously common name. If I look at Google, at the very top is my LinkedIn. The second is my terrible page I knocked together in about three minutes for leematthewjackson.com, then people can start to find out my personal appointments at different business company houses and then lots of other people's random blogs. So it's not necessarily very informative. There's definitely no nice cool thing on the right-hand side that says anything about Lee either. It just looks a bit plain, Jane, and boring. I can... I think I get it. I can start to at least see where I can add improvements. I'm at the top for LinkedIn right now, so I should probably improve that. I should definitely improve my website, probably do some schema, I'm guessing, so that we can add something. It's not mentioning any of the videos I do on YouTube, and I did tons of them. I'm guessing there's something I'm going to need to do on there. And if I scroll down to the very bottom, you can see a few pictures of me.

Lee:

That's nice.

Jason:

Sorry, carry on. No, the images are great. Images are easier to get than videos. The images is a good start. As soon as you get your videos into Google's brain, you can drop the images and replace them with the videos. This is our experience. This is a really good point because when you look at your brand search, you're saying, Well, the videos should appear, but they don't. That means you're investing badly in terms of your SEO and your videos. Sorry.

Lee:

Yeah, it's all right. I can.

Jason:

Change that. This is what I say to clients is you're putting all this effort, these resources into the videos, but they're not showing on Google. That means either you're investing badly, which was the very rude thing I say, and I do apologise, or Google hasn't understood that that's valuable to your audience. At which point it's simply that you haven't packaged it for Google correctly. What you could do is start adding your videos with links on your website, which would indicate to Google from your entity home where the entity you represent yourself in the way that you want to be represented by Google, tell Google that these videos are important to you and to your audience.

Lee:

Now I follow you. I've even Googled Trailblazer FM, my brand. There's me to Google because I'm a personal brand because I have multiple companies. But then if I Google here, Trailblazer FM, it is showing the podcast. It's showing me a podcast on the right-hand side, which is a default thing from Google, which is nice. So it gives a little bit of a credibility boost. But it is, again, giving companies house, which I don't need people to see necessarily. I've got my Instagram, which is performing better than my LinkedIn. And finally, lower down is my YouTube channel, which is actually Trailblazer FM with Lee Matthew Jackson. So you'd think that would show up, wouldn't you? But again, absolutely no videos. We do post some videos on the Trailblazer FM website and link to them. For example, when this goes live, we do link directly from this episode and we actually embed the video as well on there. But again, we're not showing up yet. So I clearly have a lot of work to do. And to be honest, mate, I'll admit, before you and I got together on this call, I hadn't really considered that I can actually influence this page for myself or for the brand.

Lee:

For me, I just thought you were stuck. I guess that's a common misconception, perhaps, then that you're just at the mercy of the search engines.

Jason:

Yeah, it's up to you to tell the search engines what you want them to show your audience. A lot of people think, Well, Google will just get it. But the web is huge. It's a huge mess. It's a huge problem for Google. It's looking for your website and it's looking to understand your website so that it can understand how you want to be represented. That doesn't mean it will always represent you the way you want because it's not just you saying that that means it's true. What Google will do is look at your website, it thinks, Okay, this is what Lee thinks is important. This is what Lee wants to promote, push forwards. This is what he thinks his audience are interested in. Now I'll go and check around the web. How much engagement is he getting on YouTube? Who's the cohort that's engaging with him on YouTube? Is it the correct cohort, the correct audience? Is his LinkedIn profile getting activity or is it pretty much dead? Is this article close to him within his market? For example, an article about me on a website in the south of France from my local government department would not be as powerful as an article about me by Milos Krizansky, who's a Polish SEL because he's in the same- Industry.

Jason:

Cohort market as me. He's very close to me in terms of my audience, my target audience. That's going to be more powerful. You not only need to look at what's there, but what could be there. Look at page two. What could you push up from page two on to page one?

Lee:

Let's have a look at page two. Carry on. Keep talking. I'm enjoying this. This is free consultancy for me.

Jason:

That's great, isn't it? Look at which cohort you belong to, i. E, a cohort being a market. Which cohort is your audience. Which group of people are you trying to reach out to? If you analyse those two, then you can start creating content that matches your market and aims for your audience. You stand where they're looking, and that's the point about all this. The interesting thing with the company's house you mentioned is that's a very clear sign that Google is really struggling to find information. It's showing the most boring piece of information that is hugely not useful for anybody.

Lee:

Unless they want to send me gifts, which is totally fine. Sorry, carry on.

Jason:

Very, very true. A gift from the tax man isn't going to be happening anytime soon.

Lee:

I really don't want that.

Jason:

But if they're going to be sending you a gift, what you really want is your website right at the top with, Contact me, as one of the rich sight links underneath. So you control a huge block of the main web page plus four or five, six rich sight links. One of those rich sight links could be, Send me a gift.

Lee:

Amazing.

Jason:

I don't really want that. I link you to the page where you say, I like chocolate.

Lee:

I do. I like coffee as well. Just thought I'd throw that in. Now, here's another question then. So, weirdly enough, I then go ahead and Google Trailblazer FM on Bing, because that's actually the search engine I mostly use.

Lee:

And it's pretty good on there. Trailblazer FM has actually got its own blog. It's got a few rich text links, which I probably need to improve because it's linked to a few random posts. But it's also got a load of my videos that I've done in there, links to my YouTube channel, all sorts of really good stuff, which is very, very encouraging. I haven't done my name yet. The weird thing is a lot of what you said, I am doing, but I feel like there's a missing ingredient somewhere. I know my market, and I've created, for example, on the Trailblazer FM website, over 400 posts that are all very highly niche towards agency owners. And yet if I Google Trailblazer FM, none of those really cool videos, at least on Google, or posts are necessarily there. It's like you said, the boring stuff because Google can't work it out. What common mistakes are people like me making, even if we are churning out tons of content?

Jason:

Right. Yeah, it's not being precise enough in your topicality, but you obviously are. Not being precise enough in the target audience that you've got, but you obviously are. It's interesting you should talk about Bing because Bing is actually much better at this.

Lee:

Good old Bing.

Jason:

Yeah, well, I know Fabriz Canal, and I've interviewed him a couple of times. We had a chat the other day about Bing chat and where that's going and where he thinks that's going to be moving them. That's generative AI in search, search generative experience. That's a hugely interesting topic as well. But he's the guy who builds Bing Bot and he's been building Bing Bot since the very beginning. He's the chief programme manager, principal programme manager at Bing. He's explained to me how it works and he's explained to me how they function, how Bing updates and how Bing works. It's much, much more fluid than Google in the sense that it evolves. It's an evolving beast, machine, animal, entity, organism. Whereas Google is this thing that keeps moving forward in jerky steps. What you'll find with Google is you'll start sorting things out, you'll start improving your videos. For example, Google really needs schema markup. Bing doesn't need schema markup so much. You'll start sorting it out, but Google will take a certain amount of time to actually react and stabilize and give you the results you want. Whereas Bing will be much more fluid experience where the results will be easier to get and they will be more representative and more helpful.

Lee:

Everyone, just start using Bing to make my life easier. End of episode. No, I'm joking. I've just googled my name as well, and it's very good for my name. My LinkedIn profile is pinned up there to the top and there's tons of information of places I've spoken at and particular video content that I've done for my name. I would like to move things around a bit, like get the Trailblazer FM website up there. But I think people would get a much better impression of me, at least on Bing. I can see here there is this terrible weakness that I have at least on Google, and obviously, masses of room still room for improvement on Bing. On search engines then? Are they the two main ones that we should be worried about? Is Yahoo still a competitor? Yeah.

Jason:

Yahoo runs off Bing, but it has different rich elements. The Blue Links are Bing, but the rich elements can be different. I wouldn't worry about Yahoo. Apparently, it's very popular in Japan. I would focus on Bing and Google. As you've just seen, you can use Bing to understand what potentially you can do to improve on Google because Bing is going to show you these things more easily. The other really interesting point is the knowledge graphs. Okay. The knowledge graphs of Bing and Google are basically huge Encyclopedias that the machines use in real time to understand the world. It's like a Wikipedia for a machine, but vastly bigger. Wikipedia has 50 million articles. Google's knowledge graph has 800 billion facts. Bing's knowledge graph is better than Google's knowledge graph. Bing is joining the dots and understanding all of these different things that you've been doing, and it's able to bring them all together in the search more efficiently and effectively than Google because Google is not able to join the dots unless you help it. What I talk about is you need to educate Google because it's a child. You need to educate it about who you are, what you do, which audience you serve for a person, for a company, for a product, for a podcast.

Jason:

Bing, you need to do that too, but less so.

Lee:

Bing probably has a little bit of the old AI going on in there as well, I assume, because I've also noticed on the right-hand side that Bing has actually created a little biography of me, which is fairly right. And it's gathered that from internet results and worked out that I run the podcast. It's got the old name for it. I'm the agency owner of Event Engine and that. So it's also worked a few extra things out and linked to some of my key sites, which is really impressive.

Jason:

It has. Yeah, that's Bing Chat. It's generally of AI in Search. Google search generative experience that they launched a few weeks ago in June was a reaction to Bing Chat launched in February. Google weren't ready, but now they've got search generative experience. It's only available in the US, but it's going to roll out around the world by the end of the year. What was interesting is that Kalicube and our clients immediately got these great results that you're seeing in Bing but on Google. Yeah, wow.

Jason:

Because we had organised information, we had educated the machine, and it could stitch together our stories. It could stitch together what is in effect, a dynamic knowledge panel with a description that's taken from different sources and information about us and reviews about us. For most companies on search engine of experiencing Google, they're going to tend to get very mediocre results, I would say. But on Bing, it's generally pretty good, as you say. Bing are a huge step ahead that right now. But all they're really doing there is, as you said, stitching together different results. The idea for them is the Generative AI is a summary of the results underneath. It's simply to save the user clicking through to multiple links to find the answer to their question.

Lee:

I can improve that obviously on Bing by making sure that more recent sites get up there because at the moment it's taking that from some of the results where I used to be the Agency Trailblazer instead of Trailblazer FM and stuff. That makes sense. I'm guessing here then does SEO play a big part of this? Because Bing is just easier in general, as I've already discovered for results to appear for anything that I'm doing. It's clearly doing well. I think what you're saying here Google needs a little bit of a handholding. Is that handholding SEO?

Jason:

I come from a world of SEO. I use SEO techniques and strategies to do what I do well, which is manage your brand on search and in fact, build digital marketing strategies that function based on, in this order, brand marketing and SEO. Because if you don't have a brand, you've got nothing to market. If you've got nothing in terms of marketing materials, you've got nothing to SEO. You need to think about brand and marketing and SEO. SEO, in my book is simply packaging for the search engines. Packaging the content you should be creating for your audience for the search engine so they can digest it, understand it, and reproduce it as the best solution for the subset of their users who are your audience, wherever they are on the search engines. That idea of saying, if I can take the content that I'm making, posting on LinkedIn, posting on my website, posting on YouTube, posting on search engine land, and I can make it digestible and easy to understand for the search engines what solution it's offering, I will perform better in SEO. SEO is packaging, and it's packaging based on understanding credibility and deliverability.

Jason:

Google and Bing need to understand what the content's about, that it's credible as a solution to the subset of its users who are your audience, and that it can deliver to their audience or to their users who are your audience, and that you will deliver that behind. So understanding credibility, deliverability, that's what SEO is all about.

Lee:

I love it. I feel right now like a Padawan and you're like the Jedi master, and I'm just soaking everything up you're saying right now like, Right, okay. Remember this. Oh, it's being recorded. I don't need to make notes, obviously. But this is really helpful. We've looked here at me, my name, Lee Matthew Jackson, which is relatively common. I had to throw the Matthew in there just to stand out from the other Lees.

Jason:

That was really smart because everybody's going to end up having to do that.

Lee:

Oh, brilliant. Well, there you go. I'm ahead of the curve. Because as Google gets...

Jason:

I guess you are. Somewhere along the line, lucky you for having a, I wouldn't say common, popular name, is that you were forced to rebrand now. But as Google gets to grip with all the other 300 Jason Barnards in the world, I might have to rebrand.

Lee:

We're going to have competition.

Jason:

But what we've already done at Kalicube is I've now got the Knowledge Panel to trigger for Jason Barnard, Jason M. Barnard, Jason Martin Barnard. I can just switch my branding at any moment and not have a problem. I've prepared for the future. But if you think about it with a common popular name, you're going to have to rebrand. If you're called Robert Smith, you're never going to get a knowledge panel of Robert Smith.

Lee:

Poor John. Where's John Smith? That must be terrible. John, change your name.

Jason:

John Smith is actually less of a problem because it's simply common across the world. Whereas Robert Smith from The Cure is hugely famous.

Lee:

Oh, that's true.

Jason:

And it's a popular name, so it's a double whammy.

Lee:

Also, it's Lee Jackson because we've got Python Lee Jackson going on there. That's Roger Stewart and all that. We've got a Lee Jackson author. We've got two Lee Jackson authors, in fact. We've got Lee Jackson Mapmaker. We have Lee Jackson Amps, which is very popular in the guitar world. Lee Jackson Antiques is a very highly regarded Antiques purveyor or whatever the right word is. It's fun, folks. Google your own name, it's amazing. Hopefully, you can control the output as a result of working with Kalicube and listening to this episode. Now, going back to my question, though, there's the Lee Jackson, so that's me. I'm a small one person. I'm me. There's Trailblazer FM that I'm looking at, and that's my small business. Are there any differences between, say, me, a small business, Trailblazer FM, and Coca-Cola? Do they have to do tons more work or is it the same strategy?

Jason:

Well, Coca-Cola are going to have an absolutely huge digital footprint. One aspect of this controlling your brand narrative on Google is that you have to clean up your digital footprint. For a big company like Coca-Cola, that's hugely, hugely difficult. It's a massive job. Kalicube Pro, what we do is bring all of that in and say, Here's your digital footprint, and we prioritise it. For a big company, it's a hugely valuable tool. For you, you can probably guess most of the things. You can find most of the things just by Googling your names. You can save yourself some money. For small business, what we offer and what Kalicube Pro does isn't as important because you can just look through the first three or four pages, figure out what's important, correct it all, clean up your digital footprint. If you're Coca-Cola, not only do you have a gazillion more results knocking around out there and you need to know which ones to prioritise, but also different people talking about you. You don't know which people and companies talking about you are most important to Google.

Lee:

Oh, my gosh. Actually, it's great being a smaller company.

Jason:

From that perspective, yeah. From that perspective. Yeah. You can tell yourself to me.

Lee:

Yeah. No, even if you're using a service, though, it's still great because you're going through a lot less information and you're trying to work out, if there's multi-gazillions of articles about your company, like you say, I didn't realize that. Yeah, it's going to be a lot harder, isn't it? It's obvious now, you said it. But it was obvious when I asked the question.

Jason:

A lot of the best things in life are blindingly obvious once you've heard it. And what I was doing up until 2015 was working manually doing exactly what you just said, whether the client was big or small or a person. I ended up building Kalicube Pro as a platform just for myself to solve that problem. I built an algorithm that analyses the Google results around a brand name and prioritises what Google is paying attention to in terms of mentions and knowledge sources so that you can then just go in and go through them in order and you know you're hitting the right sweet spots in Google's brain, we can call it. That's been an absolute game-changer for us in terms of time saved, Elisa, who's the Kalicube Pro team lead, did an experiment and she joined the company a couple of years ago, 14 hours to compile a digital ecosystem. Then she came into Kalicube, clicked on the button 10 minutes later, she had the digital ecosystem with 40% more results and prioritized. She just said, Right, okay, I'm on board. That's it. I work for Kalicube.

Lee:

That's amazing. We've got predominantly web agencies listening who obviously want to look better, whether it's local SEO that they're doing, or whether it's in the entire world for their brand. They want their brand to look amazing for their agency, but equally, they are serving, and they're building websites for clients and SEO is one of the common topics that will come up when planning for a web build. How do we appear on the first page of Google? I think what you're saying here is that there is potentially, maybe with Kalicube Pro and some education, etc, there's potentially some avenues that listeners could go down to add more services to their business. Could you give us some ideas of what those would be?

Jason:

Right. Yeah, brilliant question. We've actually just released a white paper that describes exactly this because I released Kalicube Pro as a public platform for agencies. It's agencies only. Realized that the agencies coming on board weren't working with it as much as I thought they should. It turns out, after I did the client interviews with the agency leaders, that they didn't understand what services they could offer, what they should be charging, and how it would all fit together. We've released a white paper where I've written six easy-to-sell services and lucrative margins with Kalicube Pro, which sets out the six ways we make money as an agency using our own SaaS platform. It's things like online reputation management. You don't publish loads of articles to try and drown it. You don't call the lawyers, you leapfrog, you create, generate video boxes, Twitter boxes, you change the cert, you adapt the anatomy of the cert, and you remove the negative results by giving Google instructions and education about what it should be showing. Then you can build a knowledge panel. If you've got a client who wants to look like a superstar, but if you search my name, Jason Barnard, you'll see an amazing knowledge panel.

Jason:

It's incredibly impressive and I look like some superstar, but I'm not.

Lee:

I am now doing it as you talk. Carry on. It actually comes up as an auto suggest. No way. Anyway, carry on. I'm listening.

Jason:

You've got the colorful boxes at the top, knowledge cards with lots of information on the right-hand side. I look much more authoritative than I truly am.

Lee:

It's lying. It says you're 57, you're obviously.

Jason:

You are so very, very, very charming. Thank you very much. You can build knowledge panels. With Elisa, we now say to our clients, it's not a question of if we can get knowledge panel, it's a question of how long does it take. We don't use Wikipedia. We build them organically. The only question is not if, you can get it, but when. That's based on not notability, but how clearly Google understands and how well we can educate it and how quickly we can educate it. Another one, which is the one I like most, is an entire digital marketing strategy, which I explained earlier on, which we call the Kalicube Process. It works every time. What happens is you build out your digital marketing according to where your audience are standing and you present them with the solution they're looking for, and then you say to them on Facebook, on Search Engine and online, wherever you happen to be, and engaging with them, this is the way to my website and we can provide that solution for you. Package it for Google, you get the SEO traffic. So first year is sorting out your digital marketing strategy, packaging it for Google, and by the second year you're going to get that organic growth built in because it's understood for whom you're a great solution, in which circumstances it can recommend you.

Lee:

Folks will make sure that in the show notes we put a link to that white paper and also a link through to KaliCube Pro for you to check that out. Jason, as we're coming into land, I would love for you to give us some future predictions where you think this is all going to go, especially in the world of AI.

Jason:

Can I get really geeky? Or is that the rule?

Lee:

Yeah, do it, please.

Jason:

Well, right now we're talking about search generative experience and generative AI and search in general. All it's doing is summarizing the search. It's actually really simple and everyone thinks it's incredibly impressive, but it isn't hugely impressive. It's AI, but it's AI still at the beginning. What is going to happen in the future is that Google and Bing are going to start getting their large language models working in conjunction with their knowledge graphs in real time. Because right now the two are separate. The large language models that are writing all the text that generate all these texts that we're using when you go into ChatGPT have been trained offline with a knowledge graph to fact-check, but they can't fact-check in real time, which is why they hallucinate, why they come up with absolute rubbish sometimes. In the next couple of years, what's going to happen is those two communities, the Knowledge Graph Builders and the LLM Builders, are going to start talking to each other. They're going to integrate the two together. At that point, not only do you need a corpus of text that represents your typical authority within your industry for the LLMs, but you need to be in Google's Knowledge Graph and Bing's Knowledge Graph so that the LLMs can fact-check and be sure that the information they're giving is correct.

Jason:

At Kalicube, this is what we're focusing on is get you in the Knowledge Graph, get your brand understood, and create a corpus of text and content that represents who you are, what you do, which audience you serve, what you offer, and where you're topically the authority. And the last point is really, really focus on building up neat notability, experience, expertise, authoritativeness, trustworthiness, and transparency. So it's a double T at the end. So neat. And the only way you can get your neat, or as Google say, eat, to be applied fully within the algorithms of Google Indeed and Bing, is by being understood in the Knowledge Graph. And the Knowledge Panel is the visual representation of your presence in the Knowledge Graph. Get yourselves a Knowledge Panel.

Lee:

Folks, normally at this point, I'll say to our guests, What's the best way to connect with you? And then we'll say goodbye. But instead, I'm going to wrap up this episode by encouraging you to Google Jason Barnard, of which you will know how to get in touch with him by many different ways, including his Twitter and other platforms. So go ahead and google Jason Barnard. Jason, thank you so much for your time. You're a freaking legend. Hope to have you on again soon. Thank you so much. Remember folks, Kalicube.Pro, go ahead and check that out. Jason, thanks mate.

Jason:

Take care. Thank you, Lee. That was delightful. Have fun.

Lee:

Cheers, yo.