1:3 Show up and be yourself

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Lee:

Hi, and welcome to the WP Innovator podcast, the WordPress podcast for design and web agencies. Let's make WordPress work for your business. Hi, and welcome to episode three of the WP Innovator podcast. I think we're going to call this one an epic episode. Not an episode, but an 'Epic-Sode'. Apologizing in advance, this episode hits over an hour long. But Kim Doyal was on fire and shared so much information, so much knowledge, and so much inspiration. So I encourage you, if you can get some time and listen to this episode, then I guarantee you're going to go away with tons of stuff that you can action for your design agency. Go ahead, check it out. Have an awesome day, guys. Hi, this is Lee, and today I am super excited to introduce you to Kim Doyal. Sorry, I couldn't resist.

Kim Doyal:

You need sound effects.

Lee:

Well, I was watching iCarly with my daughter the other day, and I really liked the idea of that button that you press and you get all those sound effects. So I need to buy me one of those. So let's start again. Kim Doyal. Kim is an online consultant, coach, genius, and all round fun girl to be around. She's the WordPress chick. You may have heard of her. She runs an epic podcast called The WordPress Chick, and she is constantly providing heaps and heaps and heaps of really valuable information to everyone and anyone about WordPress. What this girl doesn't know about WordPress is not worth knowing. So I'm going to shut up. And, Kim, I'm going to let you introduce yourself.

Kim Doyal:

Oh, my God. What I don't word... No, I can't even sum that up because it's so funny to me. But thank you. Hey, everybody. I'm super excited to be here. I am Kim Doyal, the WordPress chick. And I'm going to be super quick with my little intro here because I have to tell you, I have been online almost eight years now, which is crazy to me, and knew nothing about web development, technology, any of that, but was just on a mission to find something I could do for myself from home. So it is totally evolved. I thought I was going to be an information marketer and make thousands of dollars a month writing ebooks. And that's not the drug. I found WordPress and totally went on a little detour. And here I am.

Lee:

And here you are. I'm absolutely grateful that you're online and talking to us today. Now, Kim, a lot of agencies that will be listening today will probably have a very similar background to yourself. So it like we were talking before we started the podcast, quite a few agencies have found themselves having to build websites just because of the demand. People have come very much from a design to print background, and now they find themselves having to design websites and run with WordPress. So you're a great example of somebody who's joined the interwebs, taught yourself WordPress, and then you've been able to repurpose all of that information that you've learned over the years, and you're now doing an epic job in educating other people. So I definitely applaud you for that and encourage everyone who's listening to go and check out Kim on thewpchick.com. Now, Kim, before we get into the main questions, there is something that I didn't warn you about, but I'm desperate to hear. I think you might know what I'm going to ask you now.

Kim Doyal:

I think I do, but go ahead.

Lee:

Apparently, you have a cartoon voice.

Kim Doyal:

I do. I don't know from whence this came. or whatever. But yeah, it's so funny. I think the only other person, which means you've done your homework, so get on yet, Troy Dean asked me this too. So yeah, you want to hear something? Yeah. Oh, goodness.

Lee:

Okay. No pressure.

Kim Doyal:

No, it's all good. You want to think like, I think I was a chipmunk in a previous life. Okay, little battle. It's time for WordPress.

Lee:

Brilliant. That's almost like chipmunks stroke Mickey Mouse.

Kim Doyal:

It is, right? It's pretty cool.

Lee:

Brilliant. And I'm a Disney freak, so obviously I would connect that to Disney. I love it. Thank you. Sorry to put you on the spot. I thought if I gave you no warning, you may just have to go ahead and do that.

Kim Doyal:

So, Kim. I put it out there publicly, right? So it's...

Lee:

You did. What were you going to do? You were asking for it, really. And also I love the reference to Pollyanna. That's one of my favourite Disney films. So if that's the same Pollyanna that you're talking about.

Kim Doyal:

That is Hayley Mills. That's absolutely who I'm referring to.

Lee:

Perfect. So I think I've seen every Disney movie going, but I don't know. Before I talk about Disney, which is not this podcast, I need to start another one on that separately, we are interested in getting to know you a bit more. And one of the questions that I'm asking people is, as an online consultant, as a coach, et cetera, what's been your biggest challenge in your business over the last few years?

Kim Doyal:

The biggest challenge is leverage. I would think that anybody that's gotten into this industry in terms of whether or not that was your intention, again, like where I mentioned earlier, it was not my intention to build websites or do that. I just wanted to find something that I could do online from home. And so once you get that sorted and you get started, there's only so many hours in the day and it's very easy to get stuck in a time for money trap. And so there has to be a way to leverage your time and scale. And the only way to do that is to grow and invest in your business. And it's scary when you're getting started out because it's funny, I mentioned this in an email recently to somebody because they were asking me something similar about growing a team. And I said, you need to do that before you can afford to do it because you're not going to get on the other side of that. And it's scary, but that's business. I'm not sure why there's this perception, and again, this is all my perception, but it seems there's a perception that creating an online business, whether it's a design agency or web agency or WordPress, because WordPress are a lot of people that have gotten into creating WordPress websites but do not have the code back.

Kim Doyal:

I don't have that background. But because of WordPress, it's very easy to learn it. You can dive in and learn it. But it's like, if you don't take that leap, if that wasn't your goal and you don't take the leap to invest in hiring people and building a team, you're never going to get the leverage. You will be stuck in time for money. That was the biggest challenge for me early on because I felt like, God, I just created a job for me. I remember sitting on Skype with clients, changing the style sheet live for four hours. I was like, What are you doing?

Lee:

That's awesome that you got yourself to a state where you were able to actually change a style sheet for people. And that gives us an example of how embedded you were. You taught yourself so much from zero to being able to edit people's style sheets, which is actually quite a complex thing for most people to do. But I think a lot of us design agencies and myself recognize that feeling of wanting or thinking that we need to do everything. And I love that comment that you made about needing to grow a team even before you can afford it, because the actual real price of not growing that team is spending absolutely hours, like you said, creating a job for yourself. So yeah, that's awesome. Thank you very much for sharing that. And I could instantly relate. And I'm pretty sure that many people listening will be able to relate to that. Now, you said about growing your team, that instantly pricked my ears up because one of the things that we as agencies have a difficulty in is actually finding good team members. And have you any stories of how you are able to connect with people and start to grow a team?

Lee:

For example, finding a good web developer or a good WordPress developer, etc. Have you any tips there for people in reaching out, putting freelancers out and finding the right people to work with?

Kim Doyal:

Yeah, absolutely. Can I just piggy back back to the first question really quick? Sure. I will get on the team is, what happens, too, I think, with people that start this type of a business, web agency, WordPress developer, whatever, is there's an element to what you do that you love. And unfortunately, if you don't build that team, you're not going to get to focus on your strengths ever. My strength, which is why I started the podcast, and we'll get into that, but it's showing up in being me and inspiring and creating value, and I love creating content. So what was happening is I wasn't able to do that. So I got pissed. I'm like, I want to do the stuff I enjoy doing. There is this, if you don't want to be in a job situation and it is important to you to do something you enjoy, you have to create that leverage. In terms of a team, I totally baby stepping into this. I use that terminology a lot because I just hit a point where I was like, You know what? I don't really want to learn PHP. I don't want to get good at that.

Kim Doyal:

That's not who I am and how I'm supposed to show up in the world. I started, just like most people, the first outsourcing person I hired, and this was before the WordPress ship was launched, was because, again, I thought I was going to... Besides the ebooks, I thought it was going to be adsense. I was going to get rich with adsense, right? Mind you, this is way back when. I posted on Elance, I wanted somebody who was good with WordPress and good with adsense. I found a guy that was in Oregon, and we just started. I said, Look, I'll hire you. Let's do a week to week call. It was like 35 bucks an hour at the time. We started doing screen sharing and he started showing me stuff. At the time, I started playing with Photoshop. I actually wanted to be a graphic designer for a long time, and I did a lot of that. I owned a scrapbook store. I used to design stickers and stuff, so I got a creative bent to me. I started playing with Photoshop, and then I realized he was showing me the style sheet and I was like, So if I change this color hex, it's going to change the color here.

Kim Doyal:

He's like, Yeah, I got this. The puzzle pieces started to fit. He was my first hire. That's when I realized, Okay, what did I want to do? I kept stepping into this. I just wanted training was really it. Then so once I hit this point, I would say it was probably two years in where I realized, No, I don't want to get good at PHP. I don't want to do that. I don't want to get into hooks and loops, which a lot of people are probably listening, thinking, Well, you're the WordPress chick. But again, we can talk about my audience and how I created my own little space. But for me, so then it was like, all right, I'm going to start getting some programmers. I wanted to start eking money into that. So I did. I went to Odesk and I found somebody who is there overseas. He's in Vietnam and he had a company. I started working with them just hourly when I needed it. I developed a friendship with this guy. At a certain point, he said, Kim, you're using enough work that we... Why don't let me hire someone just for you?

Kim Doyal:

I was so scared that I was like, Oh, my God. A monthly retainer. It felt really overwhelming because, again, I never... People are probably going to be so bizarre, but I never have gone out marketing websites. That was never my goal. A lot of it was referrals or it would come to me. I prefer the teaching and the creating and the content in that piece of it, but this was paying the bills. That was my first step into this. What happened with him, then it was, Okay, so then, of course, as soon as you get that leverage, it's like, Well, man, I can get more sites coming in now because I've got leverage. Because nothing beats putting a task out there and it's done the next day. That is freaking awesome because at the same time...

Lee:

Hallelujah, carry on.

Kim Doyal:

I was very adamant that I did want to show up. I did want to create content. I did not want to just be a task manager and I did not want to just be the technician. Clearly, if you listen to the podcast, it's not my personality. From that point, then it was like six months into that, I was like, I think I want to have some plug in developed, which I'm going to tell you, anybody who has ever gotten a free plug in, you better rate it. Thank the plug and developer. Pay for premium plug ins, pay for support, because that was a learning curve in and of itself. Because there's so much testing involved and there's so many environments, and that's a whole other conversation, that that plug in has to work. But we did it. A friend and I, we did it. We were mapping out the back end and everything with it, and then we'd have to test it. And we had it working. It was actually the plug in. This was pre a lot of these third party tools now, but it was called Webinar Engine. And so it was a one click registration for webinar.

Kim Doyal:

You could purchase a webinar and it was an email auto responder. And so it was a plug in for WordPress. It was great, but we had templates. It was so involved, long story longer. So that was my second hire. And then once I got this guy on, I was like, I like having two developers. I can bring in more work. And then I said, look, I went to the same guy and said, I wanted a full time designer. I would get on a plane and grovel at her feet. I never want to lose this girl. She's so great. But what happened is I just started real life. The guy who owned the company was I don't want to say he was getting gritty and stuff but the designer ended up saying, I'm not going to work for him anymore because I didn't have 40 hours worth of design work for her at the time and he wanted her coming into an office. And I was like, Oh, I'm so sorry to see you go. He told me he fired Long story. Anyways, one of the programmers is doing the same thing. And they both said, We really like working for you, though.

Kim Doyal:

And so it turns out he was taking twice what he was paying them. So they came to work directly for me. And I said, Here's the deal. I gave them both a raise. I said, Can we do a two month trial? Because obviously I don't have a, quote unquote, boss to go to. And it escalated from there. And it s like, they all got raises. They were happier. I was happier. And from there, I've actually grown an outsourcing company. So I have other web developers now who use my team because I spent four to five years growing this. I've got another designer, another developer. I've got audio editors. So I just stepped my way into it, to be honest with you. And a little background is I was in retail management for a long time, so I've done a lot of hiring and processes and all of that. And so I started stepping my way into it. And then it was just I don't really even promote the outsourcing company. It's people who come to me or coach me. It's just by a block of time, I've got teamwork, they come in. It's a great way to test because they can come to me.

Kim Doyal:

I've got a US based project manager that they can get on skype and get on the phone with us. A gain, that was never my intention, but I've created it and it covers salaries. It's something that when people want to use it, I'm like, I do or I don't have time because I could grow it. But again, love in pieces but don't necessarily want to create. Well, like with Chris Ducker has created, that's not my vision. But I just, long story, longer again, really stepped my way into it. And let me just tell you, it was scary every single step of the way. Every new hire I've hired social media management, US based project managers. Every single hire was scary. But every single time I did it, I was glad I did. Even the hard lessons.

Lee:

I can totally relate to the fear as well. The fear I would experience a lot of times is obviously is can they do the job? But also this is another salary I have to pay. That's one of the things I constantly battle. But what does provide some comfort is that Walt Disney struggle, Walt Disney again. Walt Disney struggled with that his entire life was the worry about things like the bills and that. So I feel normal. But yeah, there is the fear there. But what I like about what you've said as well is that you actually developed relationships with these people, which is so important. You've developed relationships with the people. First of all, they were just doing small amounts of work here and there. So obviously it was a slow process of building up a relationship, them doing bits and pieces as you grew to work together. And now you have this big team of people who you get on really well with. I think you said at one point you would fly on a plane to go and... Oh, I would? Yeah, exactly. And that sounds awesome. And I mean, that's exciting because one of the experiences that I've had with some of the agencies that I've supported is in the past, they've had to hire quick because of demand, et cetera.

Lee:

And that's when things can fall apart because there's not been that relationship built and there's not been that time spent building up a trust, a bond, and that working relationship before the big projects start to happen. So that's really exciting. And I had no idea about your outsourcing company.

Kim Doyal:

It's funny. I'm going to be so transparent here. But you go to my site, which I did just flip the thing, right? But it's like, Is there anything to buy here? How do I work? Again, it's not like I have so much money flowing in. You and I talked before about having that imposter syndrome, and there is this fine line of feeling like, Look, sometimes I go overboard, taking the stance of it's a business, I'm going to market it. I need to make money. And if you don't like that, you can unsubcribe. That's not how I move through the world in this harsh, pissed off place. My project manager jokes, she's like, You're like the lion or the lamb. It's like, Help you, or, Hey, I can help you. Not this happy medium. But yeah, it's one of those things that having created that, it's something... And I think there's a little fear of, I don't want to get caught up managing, which is where, if you don't mind, one of the big game changers, I know we're going to get into this, though, was hiring a project manager that didn't know my business.

Kim Doyal:

And if I can explain that really quick is I had hired... I've had two other project manager... Well, three actually. So for everybody listening, I have gone through people, trust me. I am very quick to hire and quicker to fire. I don't play games with that because I'm not going to pay you and not feed my kids. So if you can do the job, then I will run to the end of the Earth. My lead developer and my lead designer, I pay them for anybody else that they bring on. So I don't care what they take or what they pay. I don't hesitate when they need time off, I still pay them. I've had people question me like, Well, why are they on retainer? I'm like, It's not your business. I appreciate them. I value them. They work for me on the weekend. If I'm in a pinch, I'm like, Hey, can you move this site this weekend? They don't complain. It's like they're people. They are part of my business family and I value and respect them. But really quick, I had hired, I went through different channels, whether it's... I've got enough of a platform that I can put it out there publicly and say, Hey, I'm looking for a project manager.

Kim Doyal:

Well, I have a lot of people apply, but what had happened is that when you find somebody who is building their own business, you're not going to be the same priority. What I found that worked for me, and it's crazy because it's actually one of my dearest friends from high school. She lives in the same city. I was talking to her, she was working this part time job. I'm like, What do you make it? I was like, I think she was frustrated. I'm like, Well, I could pay you. We were really nervous because literally, we've been at each other's weddings. We're super close, but we did an agreement. I did a W9 for her, and it was like, Look, the friendship comes first. But here's the thing. She's ridiculously anal. That has been brilliant. She's super smart. She stays on top of everything. Do you know what it's like to get a payment when you didn't even know an invoice was out.

Lee:

I've had that before. Right. And you're like.

Kim Doyal:

Please don't go anywhere. Please don't go anywhere. I love you. What do you need? What do you want? I love you.

Lee:

I think I love you is one of the things I say to my guys very often.

Kim Doyal:

Well, that's just it. And so what worked for me was I wanted somebody who... Because she said this, she's like, Girl, you know what? I just want to do a good job and feel appreciated. I took her on a Mastermind tomorrow with me because I'm like, I could not be growing this without you. It makes me teary. And because she said, she's like, God, I'm so impressed with what you've built because most people in my life are still like, What do you do? You make websites? What? But really finding that person who was like, Look, I don't want to build a business. I want the flexibility. I want to bring in some income. I want to use my brain. Our kids are a little bit older now. That worked really well for me. I went actually and I'm looking at someone just managing email marketing for me because I get my feelings hurt still with some unsubscribed, even though it's part of the business. I mean, I don't get sad, but I'm like, What the heck? Why do you unsubcribe? I'm like, Look, I need to have a regular schedule of email marketing. I texted this girl.

Kim Doyal:

I met her through my son's soccer team years ago. I'm like, Hey, are you still substitute teaching? Would you be interested? I knew she was smart. If she's a teacher, she's organized. She didn't want to be in the schools. I said, Would you be interested in doing this part time? She's like, Absolutely. I'm bringing someone else on because, again, she doesn't want to build a business, but she wants to contribute, she wants flexibility, but she wants to use her brain. These are smart women. And so that's where I think each agency or each web developer, you have to find what is going to be most supportive. This is going to sound so ego based, but I want to build an empire. I didn't want somebody working for me that wanted to build their own empire. Totally agree.

Kim Doyal:

Sorry if that was So boxy. 

Lee:

No, that is awesome. I'm just sitting there. I don't know if you heard the bang at one point, but I was nodding my head and then suddenly I realized that I'd hit the microphone.

Kim Doyal:

I did not. I was just so.

Lee:

Caught up in the words. I was just vigorously nodding my head. I felt like saying, preach it every now and again. Preach it. Yes, exactly. There is nothing else I can add to that, but yes, awesome, wow, exciting. I can just imagine people listening to everything that you just said, just getting excited because of your energy, but also the idea of how to connect with these people, building these relationships, finding these sorts of people to work with. and this is super exciting. I see so many parallels as well with the way that I've built my own business up as well with team members. I've got very similar stories in how people have joined my company and how the company is built up. So it's so good to hear it from someone else. It's encouraging for me because I've just made this all up as I went along, to be honest, and learn it all by making so many mistakes. And as a result of those mistakes thinking, Right, I ain't ever going to do that again. So by doing the opposite, I've just made these incredible relationships, incredible friendships. And that's what they are. They're friendships. We're all friends.

Lee:

Obviously, there is a level of respect. People need to do their jobs. We need to work. I need to dictate a few things here or there to get things done, etc. But the wider thing is we're all good friends and we're looking forward as well to an amazingly exciting Christmas do that's coming up where the hotels are all paid for, food's all paid for. Even the booze, which I'm a little bit worried about. Maybe I shouldn't have done that. But hey, we're going to find out what happens and we will not put the pictures on Facebook.

Kim Doyal:

It's so funny that you say that because really it's interesting to me. I always remember feeling this when I spent 25 years in retail management and I was like, Don't cut payroll. If you can't be innovative enough to increase sales, then... Because your people are it. That is what matters the most. And having the outsourcing company, because everybody that would come in, I'm like, Okay, look, I would get on Skype with them. We do some prescreening and I share with them. This is how I post stuff. But every Monday when I post tasks, I'm like, Hi, I hope you had a great weekend. My lead designer has had another baby I follow on. I'm like, He's getting so cute. I can still be professional and say, This isn't okay. You guys need to do da, da, da, da. But at the same time, I respect and I'm so grateful that they're a part of this team. It's human nature. It's basic do unto others, right? Anyways.

Lee:

Absolutely. I actually heard another one as well. Like you said, do unto others. But I don't know if you heard of this one as well, which I heard recently, which I've really tried to apply maybe in the last six months as well is treat others how they like to be treated. That was something that blew my mind a little bit because I'll treat people how I like to be treated, but also I've realized that there is this as you get to know people, you get to know more about them and more what makes them tick and the things that they like to do as well. Again, I just throw that out there. That might be really helpful for people as well.

Kim Doyal:

Absolutely. I think it's pulling your ego out. It's really being smart enough to pull your ego out of your business because here's the thing is, my Allison is way better at certain things than I am. I mean, truly. There's been a couple of times where she's like, No, you can tell them this, or, You know what? I'm going to lock them out. Their bills do. And it's like where she gets a little stronger than I am about stuff. And I'm hardly wimpy about things, but it's like having Ben on the flip side of that where maybe things were tight or it was frustrating. It's like you tend to have a little more compassion. And here she's got compassion for me as a friend and a business owner. And so it's having that person there that's willing to say, No. And so you got to pull your ego out of it and find people who are better at certain things than you. That's how you grow.

Lee:

Now, there's one problem for me in the ego. I've named the company after myself, so I might need to work on that a little bit.

Kim Doyal:

And here's the other thing. Then you flip it, right? And there's a sense of ownership there. True. Your name is On the front. .

Lee:

I like that you did that.

Kim Doyal:

Yeah. We got to be polygenic. We could flip this some how, Lee.

Lee:

Perfect. Okay, so I think you may have touched on this already, but one of the questions I had for you was what one big thing idea or product has been a complete game changer for your business? And I think you've talked about it, but I guess if you can sum it up, that would be fantastic.

Kim Doyal:

Well, there's two. So I will sum up the fact that hiring a team in general, but really the project manager, hiring her, what was so significant about that was, again, it was not what I thought in my head would have been a good fit. I kept thinking somebody needs to know WordPress, somebody needs to know this. She totally knows WordPress now. She puts content and she takes care of that stuff. I needed somebody who was disciplined and structured and detail oriented and mature enough that just wanted to do a really good job for me. That was great. I think you really need to sometimes step outside of the box. It may not be what you think it needs to be. And again, I think hiring somebody, even though she's a contractor because I don't want employees, but even though she's a contractor, didn't want to start a business. That was what really worked for me. The other thing that has been a huge game changer for me was launching the podcast. That blew up my business because... I will preach this up ways, sideways, down ways, whatever, but there's something about the fact that people consciously choose to take you with them places and listen to you.

Kim Doyal:

I jokingly say that I'm the most anti social shopper because I always have a headset on. Anytime I'm out and about because I'm one of those people that if I'm writing, I'm not great with having words come in my head at the same time. But when I'm doing parties or if I'm out and about or I'm in the car, we'll go up to my parents for a couple of hours away and my son has his headset on, I'm like, nice quality time together. But it's one of those things where I can put something good into my head. Podcasting is a way that people really feel like they know you. Where you were talking earlier about my laugh, it's like, this is me. This is who I am in person. This is who I am on the podcast. People that consistently listen to me are like my ideal tribe. I had somebody tweet to me once. They're like, I think you would be fun to go get a pint with. I'm like, I really would be. We should go get a pint with you. But they get that, right? They get that personality. The truth is, nothing has done for my business, but the podcast has in so many ways.

Kim Doyal:

I mean, I've gotten coaching clients, I've gotten web design clients, relationships. When we were talking before, I'm like, Let me introduce you to all these people, the podcast. Because the beauty of the podcast that I think is that not only is it content, which podcasting is not a trend. We know that it's not come and gone. It's not ever gone anymore once it started. I don't know if you knew this, but Google and Apple are in negotiations with all the car makers to have its Android Auto and Apple CarPlay. These dashboards are going to be put into cars. By 2025, WiFi is going to be in most cars. So you start thinking about this type of content. No other content can be taken and is pushed at people the way a podcast is. So not preaching podcasting here, but it blew up my business and it changed things for me because it was off of my little crazy I got to have fun. If it's not fun, I'm not doing it. I didn't have an intention other than I wanted to do it because I thought it would be fun. I was a speech major in college for a while and I thought, Look, I've got something to say.

Kim Doyal:

I wasn't even sure how I was going to do it with WordPress because I had done a lot of how to videos. But that also was not all I wanted to do. I was just like, Screw it. All I wanted to do was have fun doing something. The beauty was that I was creating content, I was connecting with people, and I was building a relationship with my audience. Hands down, the best thing I have ever done for my business.

Lee:

Well, that for me is validation for what I'm doing right now.

Kim Doyal:

Sorry about that.

Lee:

Okay. Yeah. Like I was saying before we started, I put off launching the podcast for so long. And I was successfully gaining relationships through talking to people on Blab, Periscope, etc. That was all good. But the podcast was that one thing that I absolutely knew I wanted to put out there because sometimes even blogging just isn't enough to be able to say everything that I want to say. Whereas the medium of the podcast was just so exciting and for me as well, like you, I can't listen to words whilst I'm writing words, but when I'm running, when I'm driving, etc. I consume podcasts all the time and feel like I know all these people and learn so much as well. I'm sure, like you said, there are so many people out there therefore that are consuming your content, feeling like they know you and then connecting with you. I guess we're now going to suddenly see a whole lot of design agencies now making their own podcasts, which would be awesome because there's not that many right now. I did check that out.

Kim Doyal:

They absolutely should because here's the thing. I say there literally is not a niche that wouldn't be served from a podcast. Should everybody podcast? I don't know about that.

Lee:

Not my mum. Just putting that out there right now.

Kim Doyal:

I should say my dad, who God bless him, is one of the most amazing men on the planet that I know. I love him dearly, but has a tendency to drag a five minute story out to 55 minutes. Dad, what is your point? Maybe that's why I talk in circles. But the thing is it's how I would target this because you get one bad review and that sticks with you. You get all 50 great reviews. You're like, Somebody was like, There's nothing about WordPress on this podcast. I'm like, Well, it's the WordPress chick podcast. I have created a space for myself where my audience is not coders and developers necessarily. I create a boatload of content and doing a lot more because I've gotten obsessed with it recently. But I like to create the content and I like to explain things and share things in a way that makes it easy for the business owner to understand. I look at my audience is, WordPress is simply a platform. That's all it is. Your business is not WordPress, even if you're doing web design, whatever. Wordpress is not your business. If you think about it, which I've learned so much of this in listening to podcasts and reading and whatnot.

Kim Doyal:

But really, you're selling a solution. So what's the problem? And the problem often is not enough customer sales, whatever. I had a mentor say, and it just stuck with me, Every business requires offers, leads, and sales. I mean, it's literally that simple. And so if you are a web agency or a developer, talk to your audience. What happens, and I see this a lot in WordPress, which is not easy to find on my side, but WordPress is just for Beginners. I was showing people just how to use Genesis to use it. I'm not going to teach you how to code child themes. I don't do that. But I'm going to show you how to use it because it's not necessarily intuitive for business owners. Did you know that there's a hashtag WP drama?

Lee:

I actually did not. I'm writing this down.

Kim Doyal:

It's not the craziest thing ever. It's so funny because I didn't know either because you know what? I don't get involved in that stuff. I stay out of that space. I love Genesis. I can't say that I'm super fond of the Genesis community. There's a level of, and it makes me sad. I met Brian Gardner at a San Francisco work. He's lovely, amazing guy. I was using Studio Press before Genesis rolled out. I met some amazing people. I met John Prez and Keri Delo. Great people. So here in my heart, I'm not trying to bash people, but I do not understand the need to make other people wrong. If you want to contribute value or help somebody, do it. But this need to bash people or make snarky negative comments is ridiculous to me. We're all in business. If the way one person markets doesn't resonate with you, don't do it. It's like you change the channel or you change the station on the radio if you don't like the song or the show. So I don't understand that. And for me, truth, I want a six figure a month business. I'm on track to hit that.

Kim Doyal:

I want to learn from people who are doing that. So when other people don't like internet marketing hype or whatever, I've got some amazing mentors that will have no problem doing $50,000, $60,000 on a webinar. I'm not saying I'm doing that, and I'm not driven by money. I love the quality of my life, but is money going to give me more freedom? Absolutely. And this idea that we can't market. There's an energy within WordPress that makes me sad. This anti marketing, the WP drama, the fact that that hashtag exists is just ridiculous.

Lee:

To me. Well, I think I won't check it out then.

Kim Doyal:

There you go. I just didn't even know it existed. I was like, You've got to be kidding me.

Lee:

No, I did not know that existed whatsoever. No, that's amazing. And podcasting, obviously, podcasting is great because like you said, it's connected you to loads of people. It's also essentially poured lighter fluid over your business and things have really taken off, which is amazing. But yeah, it's also a marketing channel. So if you are listening to this and you have considered doing a podcast for yourself, then, Hey, go ahead, do it. I've literally, what am I? I'm three or four shows in already, and I'm having a whale of a time speaking to people I would never have dreamed of speaking to or even connecting with. And I had a great conversation with Kim just earlier before this podcast where she has loads of amazing contacts. So, yeah, we can take from this. Go ahead, do it. Go for it. And it is great fun. I'm having fun. I'm sat here having an amazing time talking to you, Kim. So this is awesome. And thank you.

Kim Doyal:

You're totally welcome. I'm sitting here looking really quick because I've got the page up for the flow of the show. And like WP innovator, I'm like, you are going to be able to do so much with that. Talk about fun. You get to make that whatever you want, truly, which is so what gets me geeked about stuff online is it's your business. And I am going to repeat this, hopefully, the people listening to this have not heard my show before. I use this set, go and quote all the time. And I saw him live at a conference and he said, you need to be willing to be a category of one. That's how you're going to stand out. That's how you're going to succeed today.

Lee:

And my reply is boom. It's great to be able to do that in words instead of writing it in a Facebook comment with lots of O's in it to try to signify. Boom.

Kim Doyal:

Yeah. You need sound effects, Lee. There's an app. I'm going to send you the link. There's an app that's got.

Lee:

Some awesome sound effects. I can't wait. If it's compatible, though, with a Windows phone, because I am probably one of three people on the planet that has a Windows phone, and I really need to get myself an iPhone. But that's a totally other story. If anyone's got an iPhone they want to donate, hey. There you go. Because I don't want to buy a new one because I know if I buy a new one, I'll want to buy a new one the minute the next version comes out because that's exactly what I did when I had an iPhone. So I had to bite the bullet and say, no, I'm going to go for something different. Anyway, okay. Well, obviously you've definitely got your niche in Genesis. That's where you've had a lot of experience there, et cetera. During your experience, sorry, of the podcasting, Genesis, et cetera, using plug ins, et cetera, is there any one plug in that you would recommend that people go ahead and check out that you think would be really useful or really add value?

Kim Doyal:

Probably for your audience, I'm thinking, because it's funny is my audience, I think they're not necessarily targeting... Well, who knows? I know in my head who I think my audience is. It's more the business owner. But you ever feel like a little late to the game? And it's one of these things that this plug in I found when it first came out, I was like, I love it, but didn't really get into it. Now that I've become obsessed with content is CoSchedule.

Lee:

Really? Okay. Because I've heard that a million times.

Kim Doyal:

My God. Okay. I will be doing a whole post and multiple videos on CoSchedule because first of all, they don't do an affiliate program. You get credit for people signing up. And I think you get a credit to your account also if you do a post and I have to interview, I have to interview them. But the funny thing, so I started this whole and again, I will totally blame Dan Norris and his content machine book, which if you guys haven't picked it up, pick it up. And I don't know if you know this story, but did you know that WP Curve was grown to a seven figure business in 18 months with content marketing only?

Lee:

I knew it was growing quickly, but I didn't realize it was through content marketing only. That just blew my mind.

Kim Doyal:

Okay. And then Dan's going to think I'm like this psycho stalker. But we're friends. But I'm in his, he's got a premium Facebook group and it's called the 7 day startup because that's his other book, 7 day startup. But it's this pro and I'll look at it and he's like, Hey guys, what are you doing this week? This is my list. I'm like, do you sleep? He also has a brewery that he launched. Did you know that? Yeah, I saw that. It's not like the Dan Morris fan show, I'm sorry. But the content piece, so I just stepped back and I was like, because I've done Facebook ads. I think I've tried Twitter ads once. I'm on all platforms and I've got a pretty decent following. However, I probably spend most of my time on Facebook. That's where I get most of my traffic. I was like, There's got to be a better way to do this. I think video ads are going to be phenomenal with Facebook because they want video. I've tested some of that, but I started thinking, I'm like, Okay, so where am I going and what is the direction that I'm heading in?

Kim Doyal:

In 2016, I know what I want to do. I miss creating content. I love doing video tutorials. I love hosting webinars. I spent literally $10,000 on a guide for webinars to help me scale to do this whole webinar thing. I can't say that it was a waste of money. It's not because I got a good structure. However, again, where I'm saying that I like to show up and teach. This whole webinar idea of tell, show, but don't actually give people anything. I'm not saying that's necessarily the angle. I understand there's a psychology piece to what is the pain, what is the problem you're solving. But I want to show people how to do something. I want them to walk away saying that, you know what, whether or not I choose to take the offer at the end of the webinar, do this, I learned how to do this and this, and that was a ton of fun. It's really important for me to do that. This is all part of my content point to CoSchedule, I promise, is I really started looking at my obsession with podcasting, the fact that I like to create content, like to engage.

Kim Doyal:

Content isn't optional anymore and people are missing it. There's so many great shares and stuff on social media, but everything should stem from your website. Everything should come from the value you're creating there and the relationships you're building there. That's your asset. I see a lot of people in the WordPress space or web agency, web developers, they're not building an email list. I'm like, do you ever get tired of chasing for new business? You always have to be going after leads, but your agency without customers is nothing. It's not an asset. A subscriber list that you've built a relationship with is an asset. So I thought, okay, the fact is I would just create content that I wanted to create or that I felt like creating or people had questions for me. And then I stepped back, I'm like, all right, what is the one goal that I want to accomplish with this site. There's some crazy stuff I'm going to do next year. And so I realized, Okay, I'm going to launch a continuity program, low end that I can reach the masses. I've had people ask for me before, but I wasn't ready and I didn't want to have to do module one, module two.

Kim Doyal:

I'm like, no, I'm going to teach. I know exactly I'm structuring this. I'm going to show up in a way that makes it super fun for me. I want people to want to log in and be like, well, what's new this month? Or what's happening? I stepped back and I said, what is the value there? Who am I targeting? I stepped back and I looked at my content with where I'm going, who my list is now, and I literally started creating this content strategy, which is when I came back to CoSchedule because I have tested Buffer and Hootsuite. I have a buffer account still. I was using Edgar, that was 50 bucks a month for social media. I'm like, That's great that this pulls together this... I could pull together a library of things that I've shared, but I am in my site every single day. Because I'm creating a content strategy and I want my content to build on itself, well, hello, create the post and then schedule it four times to be shared. Or go create the social media. Here's the crazy thing is that you get great data, which I'm going to be super transparent and say that I hate doing analytics and data and have brought that somebody else on board to do that because I hate it.

Kim Doyal:

I know it's valuable setting up Google tag manager. All that stuff has to happen. It's not my sweet spot. Here's an example. I looked at CoSchedule and I was like, All right. I had had a social media girl. She got sick, she's not with me anymore. But I told her, I said, Look, we're going to get rid of Edgar, come in here. So she did. She went in and you can schedule across all platforms to be shared. So then I went into my CoSchedule account on the web and I was forked. I'm looking at the data because, again, Google Analytics isn't fun, even the plug ins. It's like, you don't get as much. Pinterest was my second highest share when she was putting everything on Pinterest because I don't know if you knew this Lee and you might. But Pinterest considers themselves a search engine, not a social media platform.

Lee:

I did not know that either.

Kim Doyal:

Quite fascinating, right? I interviewed Cynthia Sanchez , also Pinteresting way back on the podcast, and she totally schooled me on Pinterest. And I think the fact that we're looking at these elements of, again, you want that content index, you want people finding you by certain ways. So this whole obsession with content, I was like, what do I have? What am I using? How can I make my life easier? Because I'm one of those people side note, my family calls me the dumb queen because I'm always running to the dumps throwing shit away, excuse me for swearing. I like to simplify my life. I was like, What do I already have? What am I not using? And CoSchedule puts out the most amazing content. I could sit probably and take one of their blog posts every single day. You know what I did before this call? Literally, I'm working on a blog post. And have you seen their headline analyzer?

Lee:

I've not seen any of it. I looked at CoSchedule probably about a year ago and didn't fully understand what it did. But then I was only looking at it within about three minutes. So I never went back. 

Kim Doyal:

I'll send you a post.

Lee:

When it's done. Please do. I'm actually looking at the site as you speak, getting all excited.

Kim Doyal:

Well, you should because, again, first of all, the tool, it's an editorial calendar that goes in the back of your site. I want to start getting some guest post writers. I write for WP Elevation. Love it. This would be so great to go in and know that there's a flow and I could see the whole calendar. But you can also go in and schedule social media shares through your dashboard. You can go back to all your old posts and go schedule them. You can change the image. I just flipped the theme on my site, so now I have to go back and change a bunch of images to make sure they meet the right sizes and stuff. So when I do that, well, you're in there changing the image scheduled to go out three more times. So this is stuff that I did not do for a long time because I was like, Oh, I don't want to bug people. I don't want to seem like I'm too pushy or selling my stuff. Well, what is the likelihood that all 4,000 people on Facebook saw my posts today?

Lee:

Exactly. They wouldn't even clock that it's a duplicate, would they? Because Facebook is a noisy crowd, isn't it? There's a lot going on there.

Kim Doyal:

Well, every platform is noisy. And so making sure you provide value and stand up and have an opinion. Again, I'm not ever someone that's going to be snarky or badmouth anybody. That's just not how I want to move the world. However, I'm going to say, again, going back to Genesis, there's a part of me that feels like Genesis's studio press has become the ugly stepchild today maker. And I love those people and everything they've created, but it's like, what happened to innovation over there? If I sound judgy, I'm sorry, but as this huge fan, it feels that way a little bit. I don't know where I was going with that, but the whole content piece with co schedule, anybody can use it. What's the starting it now? Maybe $15 a month, 10, 15 bucks a month. But you're going to get analytics. It's a social media platform. It's an editorial calendar. Then what you want to do and find the link, it's if you just Google CoSchedule headline analyzer, it's literally coschedule.com/headline analyzer. I'm working on a post and I went through six headlines until I got a better score. No way.

Kim Doyal:

It's super fun. You just drop it in there and it tells you there's common, uncommon, emotional power words. It tells you. Then I've got a book called Words That Sell. Here in my heart, I've had all of this information for years. Something finally like a switch went off in my head like, girl, get content, get it out there, put it on as many platforms as you can, provide value, and then sell it to that audience. Meaning provide something of value, solve a problem, give something. But CoSchedule does so much. And simply, if you just subscribe to their blog, you're going to be floured at the content they create. I mean, they're a great model. I've gotten content for matting tips just by the way they format their posts.

Lee:

Wow. I've also just run a headline analysis on one of my headlines, and I got a respectable 75.

Kim Doyal:

Well, there you go. Because I have a habit of doing something like thinking keywords. I'm thinking are my keywords in there? And then it's boring. So I went from a 62 to a 77. I'm like, okay, good. I'm good. I'll take a 77. But now I'm like, I'm not going to do this with every headline. Damn it.

Lee:

Make it a game. I got to get that 100. Now, this is awesome. So what we would normally ask as well is, what's the resource or a blog? But I think I'm getting from this that you use both CoSchedule for its tool, but also as a resource. I'm guessing you're recommending here as well that people go check out all the content that these guys are pushing out there as well because it sounds epic. And I don't know why they've not been on my radar more. I think maybe from the name, I just assumed it was some automation platform and hadn't really thought any more of it because I've heard of Edgar as well. I checked that out. I used it for a few months and that was great. But I just assumed that CoSchedule was just yet another one of those. I didn't quite realise it was so in depth. So I really appreciate you sharing that and I think I'm probably going to be running all my headlines through here tonight and not going to bed just checking this out.

Kim Doyal:

It is. And again, here's a great tip for other agencies. So if you have developers or you've got programmers, is there a free tool? Because what do you think that traffic does for them? Stop and think about putting this free tool up here that, yes, they've coded and how to support it, but you scroll down and it's like they've got tweets, you can share stuff, you can find what is CoSchedule, sign in. They've created a free tool, a ton of value, and that's where I see, unfortunately, I think I see a lot of web developers or agencies forgetting that you got to build an audience. Don't just do the work, build an audience. That's how you're going to differentiate yourself. So many of them, or they still have just a newsletter. I'm like, Well, maybe I want to know what's going on more often. At least give me a newsletter. But I think that they miss that too often.

Lee:

I think as well for myself, I think I've missed that quite a lot over the years because especially in the last few months, I've created an awful lot of content, but I haven't really thought very hard about how to actually build up a database. And it was actually listening to your blogs that have really, sorry, your podcast, really encouraged me that I really need to sort that out. So right now, I haven't really got that nailed. And that's something that I definitely need for, especially over the next few months of the new year, I definitely need to get my act together there. I know I have an audience, but I don't connect with them well. And part of the reason for this podcast is I really want to connect to that audience and grow that audience. And yeah, there'll be things I'll probably want to sell to that audience as well at some point, which is cool. But yeah, I think I really dropped the ball there for a long time on that.

Kim Doyal:

I think we all have at one point, right? And I think the honesty and the transparency where you were sharing, just feeling this imposter syndrome, and we are just the point that we're all people, right? And so it's stepping into that. And so that's where I've learned. I've tried to remove a lot of the judgment from when I do things or how I've done them. I'm like, for whatever reason, this whole content thing and this connection piece has just sparked something in me. And I think it's going to kick ass next year. Sorry again for swearing. But it's one of those things that I've known about content. I've known about all these tools, I've done all this stuff, really taking the time to set up Google tag manager and making sure that do I have everything pixeled correctly? None of this is new information to me, Lee, but for whatever reason, the time is right now and that's okay.

Lee:

It's funny, isn't it? We know a lot of things, we know these things and you're right, none of this is new information to me either. I've heard this over many months, many years, but you're right, there seems to be a moment in time when suddenly everything just clicks into place and you start doing it. So for me, in this last year, my business has grown phenomenally because I've been applying, finally applying the things that I've been learning. So I've just consumed for a long time, consumed an awful lot of information, which has been great. And I can't put my finger on it, but there seems to have just been some switch where suddenly it felt right and I needed to start doing the things that I wanted to do, like start the podcast. I blog regularly, I do lots of broadcasts on different platforms, etc. And all of those things. And I have no idea really what was stopping me beforehand. But yeah, there just seemed to be that point. So if you're listening, I really encourage you, you've got a passion, you've got something you really want to do. I think one of the common threads throughout this is to go for it.

Lee:

Absolutely go for it. Well, what I'd love then, Kim, is just wrap up and you have literally dropped value bombs left, right and centre. I am totally going to have to get this transcribed because this has been incredible and I want to read it and drink it all in and listen to it multiple times, which I'm sure I will. But out of everything that you shared today, what would be one action you would encourage people to do, something that they could do today or over the next week, one small action that you think would really make a difference to them? Yeah, there it is. There's the question.

Kim Doyal:

Okay, this is going to seem ambiguous, but just give me a second. But really, it's to show up. I have had a couple of rants recently where... I don't know if you heard it. I did a podcast on the car. I'm so sick of just do the F word work and just do it.

Lee:

I listened to that one. I remember that.

Kim Doyal:

Right. And then the last one, I was like, I'm retiring the hustle. I'm so tied. I actually looked up the definition of the word hustle. None of them are positive. Here's the thing. At this point in my life, when I trust myself and I work from an inspired place or the right intention, I can work 12 hours straight and it doesn't feel like anything. I get so much accomplished. So one is I trust myself, but you need to show up and do business the way you want to do it. Okay? So tangibles, right? That means either write the post that you've been avoiding, take a stance. I can't tell you, it was scary for me to make the comments I made about Genesis, the community. And again, this is the recovering Catholic and we have to prequalify everything that it's I'm not trying to badmouth anybody, but as someone who loved that space, it doesn't feel the same anymore. I've grown and they've gone a different direction. But you have to be willing to be yourself, truly. That is the only way you're going to succeed online. Because if you start doing things the way other people do it, you're at one of many.

Kim Doyal:

That means show up. Just like you launched a podcast, whether it's writing a post, doing a video, I've done Periscope. I have Annie's plug in for Blab. I haven't done a Blab yet because I always joke that, Well, now I got to go do my hair. It's not like guys, you.

Lee:

Should show up. I'm bald. I cannot relate. #icannotrelate. Carry on. Well, teens don't have to do.

Kim Doyal:

Makeup or anything either. Girls, it's like, oh, anyway. And that's just me. And I think if I just show up, people aren't going to care anyways. And that's the other thing, right? Most people are thinking about themselves, not you. So human nature. But again, do it the way you want to do it. We have a global audience to connect with and do business with. There is enough for everybody, but you have to differentiate yourself. You have to It's like building an email list. Again, I think everybody should do it, but create an offer for your audience. It's fun for you. Do an audio, do a video, do whatever works for you. But I think more than anything, that's the differentiator, really. I know it's a big yes to show up, but you have to be willing to share your stuff. You have to be willing to market you because if you don't, no one else will.

Lee:

That's amazing. Just show up and be yourself.

Kim Doyal:

Yes. Awesome. Cartoon voices and all. Just show up and be yourself.

Lee:

Was that good? That was crazy. Hey, I can do it too. Who'd have think?

Kim Doyal:

Not many people can. That's amazing.

Lee:

I got to admit, as a kid, that's all I used to do. I used to sit in front of the mirror pretending to be Jim Carrey, pulling all the faces from Ace Ventura, and also doing stupid voices. There you go. That's something people didn't know about me. That's fun. That was only last week as well.

Kim Doyal:

It's funny. I did this with a guy I'm working with, coaching, and I'm like, What music do you like? Clearly, you have this massive creative event with this draw to Disney, which I'm a huge Disney fan too, and we go to Disney often. But it's one of those things that that creative pull. I asked him, What music do you like? What movies do you like? I'm like, Okay, I don't feel that when I read what you're writing. So I'm like, Be who you are, write in your voice, show up. It's like, I mean, you could probably do a post on the top 10 lessons you've learned from Disney, right? And for web developers or something. Imagineers, right? Hello, that's brilliant. But there's so many ways you could pull in that element about who you are that you're going to have a ball creating that type of content.

Lee:

Lets take the idea and I can't wait. It's coming to a screen near you. I think I own every single book about the Imagineers, about customer service, about time management that Disney Company have ever produced. So I've got a whole ton of information I can share. That's a great idea. Why didn't I think of that? Just show up and be yourself, including if you love Disney, hey, use it. That's amazing.

Kim Doyal:

How many of the designers you're welcome out there have been inspired by Disney? It's like, oh, there's your tribe.

Kim Doyal:

Just playing anyways.

Lee:

No, that's good. I'm happy to do that. I'm just jealous that you're in California, you can drive to Disneyland. That makes me jealous.

Kim Doyal:

Well, you have to come visit.

Lee:

Just putting it out there.

Kim Doyal:

See, San Francisco, too. I'm not super close. We're a good 6 hours. But again, it is worth, like, we could go down.

Lee:

For like, two days. I'm a good 14 hours plus overnight stay at a hotel beforehand. Long story. All right. Well, I mean, this has been amazing. Thank you so much, Kim. You've been incredible. I've learned so much from you. I know everyone else is going to have. And I feel really, really inspired. I just thank you from the bottom of my heart for taking the time out, sharing your experiences, telling us your story, and giving us all these wonderful pieces of advice that we can totally go in action. And I'm so excited to go and listen back to this, to read the transcript, and to start actioning the things that you've shared with us. So how could people who are listening to this right now, how can they connect with you? How can they follow you? And how can they keep learning from you? What's the best ways or the best places to go to connect with Kim.

Kim Doyal:

First of all, thank you so much for having me. I have had a ball and I'm like, we're going to be friends forever now. This is great. So the best place is probably the site, thewpchick.com. I would say Facebook is probably the only social site where I got a Facebook page, The WPchick. The rest is all Kim Doyal, just K, I, M, D, O, Y, A, L. So I think Royal, it's like Doyal. But probably the website or of course Facebook. And then, of course, podcast. I'd love to hear from people listening to the podcast, but the website is the easiest place to get in touch with me, just thewpchick.com

Lee:

thewpchick.com. Now, you can be koi if you want to, but on the phrase Just Show Up, I noticed during the show that there is a page called Just Show Up, and it says something is coming. So can you say anything about that? Or shall we just say, if you're interested in something awesome, go and check out just forward slash just show up. Should we leave it at that or did you want to expand?

Kim Doyal:

I can expand really quick. This is where I talked about. This is the community program and it's going to be a low price where I'm going to do training once a month and I'm going to have a guest training and then I've got a digital digest. I have this crazy inspector gadget knack for finding cool stuff on the web. So we're going to be compiling and I'll have case studies in the magazine, too. But really it's not necessarily how to do this with WordPress. I want people who are like, Look, I've got a business, I want to invest in it. How do I differentiate myself? So there may be one month's training, maybe, look, I'm going to show you how to do a complete lead funnel with the Thrive plugin. That's an example. And it's going to include email copy and all the technical pieces will have the training, but the lead copy and how to connect with your audience and how to get your offer out there and how to scale that. So that may be one. The other one might be how to sell a physical product online. I have some amazing friends and it made that way.

Kim Doyal:

But I've got some great connections. And so then hosting a guest webinar just for the community, where it's one month, it might be doing Facebook ads, selling physical products or manifesting. I want to show up in a way that is super fun for me. And if it's, look, you want to launch a podcast or you want to create a content strategy. It's everything that I'm doing in my business. It's like pulling back the curtains and going step by step. But then I want to throw in some fun because I have to just show up. There may be some meetups or some hangouts or whatever that looks like. In person, I'm a big believer. I have gotten recently into a direct mail. You'll find out after you've been on my show what I do for my guests. There's something fun. I think direct mail is going to be making this quasi come back, right? Not that it ever went anywhere, but there's a way to connect with people when they physically get something from you. That's all I'm going to say for the Cotney program there. But it's a way to connect with people and say you matter.

Kim Doyal:

That's it. I love finding those people that are like, I don't want to be a carbon copy of this guru. I got to be me. And so that's what just show up is. It's going to be training. It's going to be a community, and it's going to be a ton of fun.

Lee:

I wish there was video right now because when you speak, I can sometimes imagine you doing that Z with your fingers and clicking.

Kim Doyal:

My kids, they're like, mom, you know my daughter's, she goes, when you get really old, it's going to be really hard to understand you because I just get on this role and I talk with my hands. So, yeah, I think I'm Italian in Previous life.

Lee:

 If you've been listening and you really like what you hear, it sounds like this program that Kim is launching right now, it says in 5 days 13 hours. The great news is that by the time you're listening to this, you can go and there'll be, I believe, in five days, 13 hours, 13 minutes and 40 seconds, which is the future, which you will be listening in. I'm getting myself confused now. There'll be something for you to go and check out where you can hear and learn more of the amazing stuff that Kim has shared. So we have had an hour with Kim of epic information, exciting information. Go and check out Kim's website, connect with her on Facebook, and also go and check out this section of her site, just show up where it sounds like you're going to be able to continue to learn from Kim over the next few months and years as she draws back the curtains of the epic things that she's doing in her life and that you can then apply to your business. I think you've made a customer out of me as well.

Lee:

I signed up whilst you were talking. I was just like, Yeah, I'm sold. I've signed up to the list. I want to know the minute this is out, so you let me know. I will play.

Kim Doyal:

It's going to be fun.

Lee:

I can't wait. Well, Kim, thank you so much. Again, totally honoured. I really, really appreciate your time. Thank you for listening. I have nothing else to say. I am just on a high. This has been an incredible interview. I look forward to connecting with you all. If you've got any feedback on the show, I'd love to hear from you. You know this is new. There's still a few sound issues I'm working through, so I appreciate you taking the time and bearing with me. But if you got any feedback, any more information you'd like to learn, anything that Kim said that you're really interested in that you as a design agency would like me to explore further, then please get in touch. It's leejacksondev.com/podcast. And if you would like to connect on anything else, just hit forward slash contact, leejacksondev/contact. Let's just have a chat if you're interested in a talk. And most importantly, keep innovating. So I think you can see why we call this one an 'epic-sode'. Kim, you are epic. Thank you so much for being a part of the WP Innovator podcast. So since we recorded this, this Just Show Up is not yet live, Kim has decided to keep us all waiting because she is packing in tons and tons of exciting and valuable features.

Lee:

So as of the day this episode goes live, there will still be 15 days left on the countdown. So that's thewpchick.com/just-show-up. Or just go to the wpchick.com and click on just show up, which I probably should have said earlier, but that's fine. So you can probably tell as well I have a cold. So I don't have the sound effects yet, but we will invest in the sound effect. But go and check out the feed because we've got some great WordPress tips for Christmas. It's the 12 days of WordPress tips. Number one and number two are already out and we're also putting them with a nice graphic on Twitter. That's Lee Jackson Dev is the Twitter handle on there. Thanks for listening. Have an awesome, awesome day. Get in touch. Leejacksondev.Com/podcast. Take care, guys. Bye bye.