40:6 How Design Box make clients happy

Lee:
Welcome to the Agency Trailblazer podcast, this is your host, Lee. And on today’s show, I’d like to say hi to my friend, Tom Amos, who’s walking his dog right now and listening to himself. Tom, how are you?

Tom:
All good, thank you. Thanks for having me on, Lee.

Lee:
All right, Tom is a long time listener, but also the result of last week’s episode. We met up with Nicole, and she shared how she rebranded. She was Lollipop Social, she recognised that she needed to diversify and focus on agencies. She had a lot of expertise that she could give to agencies, but her brand was not reflecting that. So, she decided to work with Tom and the team over at Design Box Media, and she got really excited during the episode. Highly recommend you go and check that out about the process, and how lovely Tom was and everything. So I figured, why the hell not? Let’s get Tom on the show.

Lee:
I apologise for my voice, I’ve got terrible allergies, so a bit croaky today but bear with me, Tom. So I said, “Let’s get Tom on and let’s do a little bit of an imaginary brand exercise with them and he can take us through some of the process.” But before we do that, Tom, please introduce yourself to everybody, and let us know a little bit about yourself.

Tom:
My name’s Thomas Amos. I own a full service digital marketing agency in Southend in a United Kingdom. The company is called Design Box, and we’re starting to slowly niche towards the membership sector over the past year, mainly because of COVID, et cetera. But, we’re getting a bigger demand for that. And yeah, favourite food’s pizza and I love a bit of whiskey.

Lee:
I’m wanting to get dog’s names, so we can give them a shout out on the podcast as well.

Tom:
So I’ve got a Siberian Husky called The Nuke, and a Malamute called Nala.

Lee:
So, if you’re wondering what we’re talking about, folks, Tom is a long time listener and listens to this podcast on his dog walks. So, apparently both dogs are ridiculously big fans of the show too, I believe. [crosstalk 00:02:01]-

Tom:
They can walk.

Lee:
They can’t answer to that.

Tom:
Yeah.

Lee:
So like I said in the introduction, Tom, Nicole was absolutely raving about you guys and that was really refreshing to hear. And very often a client relationship can kind of break down, especially when a client doesn’t know what’s going on. But, it was really clear for Nicole that the communication she had with you guys was really good. She knew what to expect, and she was kind of able to lean on you guys enough and trust you guys enough to follow the process. And I’m sure everybody will agree, check out at her website site. We’ll put a link in the show notes as well.

Lee:
The result of the brand, the colour scheme, the imagery, the website, et cetera, really matches her brand and her personality. And really does, I believe, attract the agency owner, for example, Imogen and shared just today. I think it was this morning Imogen Allen, she shared this morning on Facebook, that the moment she saw the brand, she knew she wanted to join with Nicole’s programme. So, that’s an amazing testament to what you guys have created.

Lee:
So, I figured let’s pretend now that I’m extremely envious and jealous, and I now want to go through the same process with Agency Trailblazer. And I’m going to come to you with my terrible brief, which is, “Oh yeah, Tom, I’m not sure if Agency Trailblazer is the right brand. I’m not sure it looks right and is attracting my audience. I’m wondering if you could go through a rebrand exercise with me and build us a new site.” What do you need to know? What would be kind of the initial process that you’d like to take me on?

Tom:
Okay, so the first step would be a level of discovery. So, we would have around about an hour session with me and my head designer, Mark. And, we would start to cover what the objectives are with the rebrand. So, a lot of people think having a rebrand is just a new fancy logo, or a font change, or a colour change. We’ll dig a lot deeper into that, so we’ll look at the business itself. And if there’s personal branding, we’ll obviously look at that as well with Nicole in her case. There’s a hell of a lot of personal brand to go off, and there’s a lot of character that we can pull out into the brand.

Tom:
So, we would have a look at four main objectives. One of them will be the immersion objective, which will be sort of understanding the ambition of Agency Trailblazer. And from there, we would also look at the black brand platform, so we’re going to look at what it’s going to look like on social, how it needs to be displayed. What’s going to look like on other platforms, and then what the objective is actually going to be within the rebrand? So, we’re going to look at how are we going to bring a new identity and how are we going to launch that identity.

Tom:
It’s not going to be a case of, “Here’s my new logo.” It’s going to be, let’s build up some hype. Let’s build up a change within the social, just changing your logo on social. Members that have previously known you that then suddenly see your new design aren’t going to suddenly instantly know that that is Lee Jackson’s Agency Trailblazer. They’re going to have to be introduced to this brand bit by bit, and it also gives us a bit of a test just to see how people react to certain posts and certain things before we go for the full rebrand.

Lee:
So, a lot of this is the conversations or the sorts of conversations we’d be having then in that initial discovery session, kind of what we want to achieve and throwing in some of those ideas. Do we want to do X, Y, and Z? Do we want to marry in your personal brand? Will you want to do some sort of launch campaign, et cetera, et cetera. So these are… And, is this before kind of you do any quoting or agree on pricing?

Tom:
I’ll be honest during the proposal stage, we’ll give a little bit of a snippet to this. So, generally I would introduce you on Zoom, or once face to face. And, we’ll give you some examples of that process showing a little bit of that process. Not enough to show you everything, because everyone’s different and you don’t want someone thinking they’re going to get exactly the same as someone else.

Tom:
We would just get a little bit of a snippet as to, this is how this company started. This is how they ended and go through our case studies. And, then we would then ask some of the big pain points that you’re having with your brand from right now like why are you looking for a rebrand? Why’d you need it? What does your business need it? And, what’s your hope to achieve from that? And, from that you’re pretty much answering exactly what we need to do. We just need to break that down further in a discovery session once we put a proposal together.

Lee:
But, then don’t sell for them because you would’ve described, I guess, the process then that you went through with Nicole, for example, and/or with someone else as well. And then I just said, “Well, I really like what you do with Nicole there. I think that would be really helpful, I think we’re very similar.” So would you agree that, that would be the right process? And, then you would kind of take me down that process.

Lee:
So, we’ve done our initial discovery kind of what’s next. I mean, for me, I know where I start to do things like wire framing, or concepts, or all sorts of other things. But, equally I know other agencies that will do things like creative days and stuff like that. So, what’s your kind of process? Shall we stick, first of all, with kind of the overall brand before we talk about the website?

Tom:
Yeah, yeah exactly that. Because, it’s still going to be the foundation so we will break this down a lot further. We go through a bit of a word exercise, so what words does the brand make you feel right now? For example, is it too complicated? Is it dated?

Lee:
Oh, that’s clever?

Tom:
What does it need to be? Does it need to be memorable? Does it need to be considerate to people’s feelings? So, we’ll look at the positive words and the negative words.

Lee:
Oh, I can give you a few then, let’s do that.

Tom:
[crosstalk 00:07:47].

Lee:
I’m looking Agencytrailblazer.com right now. Folks, I encourage you, Agency.trailblazer.com/… I think it will be 321 will this episode be, I think. So head on over to this episode, let me know what your words would be as well. But, I’m taking a look and I can see that I have some images with a lighthouse in the background, and I also have my video images, which are completely different. So, right now there’s a lack of consistency. So no consistency, et cetera. At the same time, I like the colour scheme. So I do think it’s friendly, I think the font is readable. So I’m kind of throwing words at you, is that the sort of thing we’re thinking?

Tom:
Exactly that, so the great thing is that is everything negative that you give us, we just have to find the opposite to that word. So for example, with you saying it’s not consistent, then obviously we need to make sure it’s consistent. So, we sort of worked through that together and it’s everything that we like and everything that we don’t like. So you like the colours, so great. It’s relative to the industry, it’s got that clean feel. So okay, we’ll make sure that, that’s in there.

Tom:
So if anything, we’ll make sure that then was stay in that right-hand column, and you think on the left will be the negative, if you like. So, it’s a really good concept because before you look at the logo, I’ll get my designers to also ask them questions. Does it look dated, because the client specifically said their logo looks dated? Okay, it’s going along. It’s a bit behind, so maybe that’s not the right logo. Before we even go into that concept, we know straight away it’s going to be wrong.

Lee:
One thing that I know for me is that as I look at my brand right now, we’re actually using a lighthouse. We used to use a rocket ship, but I think everybody was doing rocket ships. So we figured we would do a lighthouse, because we were going through a personal brand for me with Lonely Viking. And, they were helping me kind of come up with some Mark ideas for my name, and lighthouses kind of feature a lot in my life. And, I love the idea or the concept of a lighthouse steering people away from the rocks, and also being a reminder of home, et cetera. So, they actually drew up this lighthouse icon.

Lee:
However, I know I’ve then struggled to kind of put that brand and kind of create some sort of complimentary brand to go along with that. So, right now there is a lighthouse and Agency Trailblazer, and I imagine a lot of people aren’t really sure why. So, that would be kind of part of the conversation I know I would be having with you guys. And then again, that’s something you’re going to be taking on board. If I said, “I want to keep the lighthouse, but do something with it.” What would you guys do? Would you keep the lighthouse? Or would you say, “Lee, no lighthouse is completely wrong,” and go off in a different direction?

Tom:
No, a hundred percent. I think the lighthouse is a good thing. Now I know the story behind it a bit better, it will allow us to be able to put that personality within the brand in other areas. Not just the logo, we can look at your social posts. There’s more than just having a logo. There’s looking at shapes, looking at abstract elements. So using your sort of your blog posts, or your podcasts or anything like that, we can make sure that we can put elements to compliment the lighthouse. And what you’re just saying, “Stay away from the rocks.” So, we can try and put that just subtly in certain areas to make it look like you’re opening up a path to the right place to go.

Lee:
I like it.

Tom:
So understanding that, we just have to make sure that we portray that in other areas. It might not always show it in the logo, but there are certain things you can look at the fonts. You could make the wire, just for example, look like it’s a path. So, you can really sort of run with that. So I definitely think you can do it, there’s just different ways that you can look at doing it whether it’s fun, or colour, whatever it is.

Lee:
So we’ve then had this conversation, you’ve taken this to your designers as well. Like you said, you’ve looked at whether or not it’s a bit old fashioned, a bit random, yada yada, yada. What’s next? Is it concept stage?

Tom:
So next up, once we’ve done a discovery, we actually do quite a lot of research behind the scenes. So, we will have another meeting and we’ll go over our competitors. So, we’ll look at good logos and bad logos, and we do this on purpose because there’s a lot of people out there that don’t understand what a good logo should look like. So, we’ll give some examples of good logos of people in your industry and poor logos. And we’ll give reasons as to why the competitor’s done well, and why the competitors not done well.

Tom:
So we’re sort of educating you on how a good logo should work, and how bad logo would not work. Now, straight away that then suddenly eradicates we’ve had some amazing requests where clients have asked for stock images to be part of their logo. And we’re like, “Oh no, that’s a picture.” So we’ll go through that as well, we’ll go for the findings. Again, we’ll sort of go back over the word examples that we went through, and then we’ll go through the plan.

Tom:
So we’ll go for, “Right, what are we going to do next?” And, then we’ll just finish that off on that consultation with what the current brand says about us. So for example, Design Box Media, we just had a rebrand last year and we rebranded to Design Box because the name was too long. The Media didn’t really need to be there, and honestly, it didn’t so we cut it down to Design Box. We had to look, look, we’ve been around for a while and we want it to come away from the green. So, we were looking about what we were trying to do and how we’re going to do it. And, we also had some competitors with very similar names, so we had to make sure that we differentiate ourselves from them.

Tom:
Once we’ve done that, we then do another little name cloud, but this is aiming all the words that we want to aim for. But we go through the imperative words, the less important words and the least important words. So for Design Box, we looked at reliable, creative, honest, innovative. They were the main four words that we went for. They could be quite broad words, not very, a lot of people want to go for them but then they’ve got to stay at the core. So, we’ve got to make sure that honesty looks the least important part of our brand, because it has to be the important part for our brand.

Tom:
Then next step we’ll look at the less important words like fun, efficient, resourceful, friendly, local. So, there are less important words that we’d look at. And then the least important words will be small team, outgoing, bold, bright. We’ll look at that for your business, so once we’ve covered through that, we would then let the client know that, “Right, this is where we going now.” We both made it pretty clear, so the last discovery meetings, how the company or personal brand needs to be seen, and then we’re going to get straight into the fun stuff next. So, the fun stuff will be the fonts, the colour swatches, the concept, the abstract shapes.

Lee:
It is funny that you guys dropped Media, because I’ve been going through a little bit of a process with Agency Trailblazer. And I’m considering dropping Agency from the actual logo itself.

Tom:
It’s not a bad idea. I mean-

Lee:
Yeah, so we’ve got Trailblazer and I’ve got a domain that is just Trailblazer, but I’m not going to tell you what the extension is.

Tom:
Yeah I mean, with the word agency. I think we all fall into this old SEO trap where my original company was called Essex Web Creative.

Lee:
That’s [crosstalk 00:15:37]-

Tom:
So, you can really tell what I was trying to get. Yeah, and-

Lee:
You should have put, A Really Good Essex and then you’d have been at the top of the yellow pages as well, mate. [crosstalk 00:15:47]-

Tom:
[crosstalk 00:15:47], tell me about it. But, yeah so we had evolved. We’d evolved, we had clients now. We’ve got clients in Ireland, I’ve got clients in Portugal, in America and Australia so Essex Web Creative doesn’t make any sense. So, I think we get into that trap and that it’s not a bad thing too, because a lot of people go into that build themselves up, find out who they are and then make that change. And, it’s a bit like what you were saying. You’re obviously looking at maybe trying something new, and does the word agency really [crosstalk 00:16:22] in what you-

Lee:
Is it necessary?

Tom:
Yeah, yeah exactly that.

Lee:
And also, I do get the other thought process about it was that we do get an awful lot of real estate agents sending us emails asking to be on the podcast.

Tom:
Oh, wow.

Lee:
Because, they think we’re… The funniest thing, as well as the like, “I really love your podcast. I’ve listened to many episodes. I’m a real estate agent, and so and so.” I’m like, “You obviously have not listened to my podcast, because we’re all about web design.” I just send a nice friendly email saying, “No, thanks you.” But, it is [crosstalk 00:16:57]-

Tom:
I thought same, I thought it was for recruitment agencies.

Lee:
Well, no, we’ve had that too. I got a lot of recruitment agencies adding me. I get all sorts of things. And again, that’s one of the reasons why I’ve been wondering, do we drop Agency? Anyway, this isn’t about me. This is about your process, and so far, let me just recap where we’ve been. I’ve approached you, you guys have given me an initial conversation find out enough. You’ve then done a discovery during that, you’ve also kind of showed me a few of the paths that you’ve taken with other clients just to kind of work out and gauge how we all might work best together.

Lee:
We’ve then gone through a few word exercises, et cetera. We’ve also gone through looking at the existing brand, and comparing brands from different people within my industry, competitors, et cetera. And you guys have already explained to me what makes a good one, what makes a one. Now we’re into the fun bit, which is like you said, swatches, colours, fonts, all of that good stuff. Could you just kind of create the scene of how that might look? How do you do that?

Tom:
We’ll look at each part individually. So fonts is normally the first thing we jump onto, because fonts can tell so much of a story within a brand. Whether you want to be bold, whether you want to be straight and straight forwards, whether you want to be corporate, whether you want to be fun. So, that’s going to be a really big step that we next take. So we’ve Nicole, for example, what people don’t know is we wanted to put a bit of a German personality within Wunderstars. Now, when you look at German fonts, a lot of them naturally come up with your sort of your beer looking fonts like Stella Artois.

Lee:
Now, that’s not bad.

Tom:
No, no it’s definitely not bad but that’s-

Lee:
There’s a lot of gothic fonts as well, isn’t there?

Tom:
Yes, exactly and that wouldn’t make any sense. And, that was not the feeling of German that we wanted to go with. Now, Nicole comes across as a very colourful, very fun personality and so having a gothic theme would certainly not fit Nicole’s personality at all. So, yes we finally found this bold font that we use for the Wunderstars logo. And believe it or not, it only just come out when we used it. So, it was quite nice and unique that we could find a font that is very new, so we’d done that.

Tom:
We also did look at some other different concepts, playing around with some more angled fonts just to try something different and see what comes around. Now, we don’t just look at one font, so this is where a lot of people get stuck connecting. Well, I’ve got my font for my logo, that’s my font. We will look at some abstract fonts. Now if you look at her website on Wunderstars, we have this brush effect font that we use for things that we want to really show off. And, we really-

Lee:
Like Hello.

Tom:
Exactly.

Lee:
Guten Tag, yeah.

Tom:
Exactly, yeah so we’ll use that just to break a little bit of the norm in between. We don’t want everything to look the same the whole way through. And, then bits that we really want to show off or use the abstract font. And then obviously, if we’re thinking about a website, we probably want to look at a third font which might be body text, or just a general font that we would use for the writing across the page. Now generally, would use proven fonts for things like that just purely because you don’t want to make it hard for the reader.

Tom:
By this time, we’ll have a couple of concepts that we’ll have themes of fonts. So we’re not going to just have one font, we’re going to have one font and a different weights. What we’re going to use that font for, and we’ll have an abstract font with a few different weights. If we’re going to have a few different weights and what we’re going to use that for, and then we’ll probably have a body font and that’s pretty, self-explanatory what we’re going to use that for.

Tom:
So once we’ve done that, we’ll then jump onto the colour palettes. And again, the colour palette is going to really, really talk with the personality. So for example, Nicole is a really colourful personality. So this was going to be fun straight away, because we know we could mix it up and do something a bit bright, a bit out there. And as she’s probably said in the last podcast, we had this green that we had to use. So it was like, “Right, okay how we’re going to get…”

Lee:
Work into that wall, you needed that green.

Tom:
Yeah, yeah it was like, “It was not the direction we were going to go, but we’ve got to make it work.” And we did, and it was, “Right, okay we really need to find tones that match that green, but still allow us to go in the direction we need to go.” So again, we’ll look at the colours and the colours will act in the same way as the fonts. Especially on a website, we’re going to have the colours used in different areas. So, you’re going to have a certain colour for call to actions on a website. Even if it’s a call to action on a Phone Now or blog post, we’re going to need to look at all them different colours.

Tom:
Once we’ve done that as well, we will look at some different shades of whites, and greys, and blacks just in case we want to do something a little bit different. And, so we just need to have a bit of a different colour text on the page will sometimes look that black might be too sharp. We might tone it down and use a dark grey for the text, and things like that. Yeah, so once we’ve got them covered, it’s then shouts to logo concepts and that’s when the guys will spend a good few days playing around with the fonts, with the colours. With now maybe some shapes we want incorporate within the logo, and really trying to put everything that we’ve researched together.

Tom:
So, obviously we’d look at the lighthouse if it’s for Agency Trailblazer, and we’ll look at how we can incorporate that. Can we do something custom with the font to really show that off? Could we somehow make the I in Trailblazer look like a lighthouse? So, we can use a bit of personality in that font so that, you don’t always have to have an object. You can have it as part of the actual character of the font itself.

Tom:
Obviously once we’ve done that, we’ll go through the concepts and we’ll explain the story of each concept to the client. It won’t be a case of, “Here’s 40 different logos, which one would you like?” It’s a case of, “Here’s three logos and these all go in a slightly different direction. They’re not all trying to go out and do the same thing. They all trying to go in a slightly different direction.” We’ll have one that will be very safe. That will be an adaption if you’ve got a current brand. We’ll have one which will be what we feel is the way that we would go if it was our business. And that’s how we would point, and then we do one that’s a bit creative and a bit out there, and pushing the boundaries a little bit.

Lee:
The wild card style.

Tom:
Exactly that, yeah so depending on how far you want to push it, we’re going to have these three different directions to push towards. When we go for the concepts, there’s a really important thing that we’ve learned over the years. And that’s when we give the concepts of the logo, anyone making the decision on the logo, they need to be involved in the project from the start. There’s no use bringing in somebody, a business partner once we’re doing the concepts, because they don’t know the discovery that we’ve just gone through and there could be something missed.

Tom:
So if we hit that, we do tend to say, and we make this very clear at the start that everyone that’s going to be making the decision needs to be involved from the start, or we’re going to have to go from the start when they come in. So it’s very, very clear that all the decision makers that are going to be part of deciding whether we go with this brand, they need to be in. Everyone needs to be involved right from the very start, and it just eradicates any problems later down the line with someone trying to go down a different path.

Lee:
So now what we’ve done, and I’m going to try and keep this voice going. I’ve got terrible hay fever. So we’ve done the colour swatches, we’ve gone through that process now. Your team have, like you said, explored the fonts, explored the marks. You’ve put together some concepts, you give me a wild card. Something that you guys would like and something else. I’ve then picked, and I assume then we go into kind of web build, et cetera. And, I want to kind of leave a dot, dot, dot there because I’m imagining a lot of people at this point, kind of know the rest of the process.

Lee:
I think the missing ingredient from this conversation now is just to understand how you communicate this all the way through. As in how do you communicate, and how did you keep Nicole so happy and aware of each and every step you are going through? Because, I imagine we could go all afternoon on every single step that you took. So, let’s kind of stop there-

Tom:
No worries.

Lee:
… and just explain to people listening how can we effectively communicate to our clients and keep them as happy as Nicole in last week’s episode?

Tom:
I think communication is the obvious answer. If you’re going to have a delay for whatever reason, just voice the delay. It’s just being clear with the client to say, “I expect I might have this finished by Friday, but worst case if I haven’t, I’ll be in touch Monday.” So, it’s just having clear deadlines and scope. So, every Friday is generally Tom’s catch up day, so I will let all my clients know where we’re up to. They know there’s no point interrupt me a Wednesday or Tuesday, because we’ve only just started the week. Unless there’s a reason like a change of direction on any work that you want us to do.

Tom:
Everyone knows that they’re going to get the email on Friday. So unless there’s any big changes, Tom’s email Friday. And that actually saves us a lot, because it prevents me from doing a lot of stop and start, and it makes it very clear for that client that next week we’re going to achieve this goal for you. So communication’s really, really key.

Tom:
The second thing I would say that we do really well is we’re very, very lucky. We’ve got some great staff, and everyone’s really passionate about each client. So, we used to have a lot of nine to five guys if you like in the past. And, that was great because the job was done and it was nine to five and whatever, but we’ve got some great guys that work for us now, and they get really involved with the client. It’s not just the, “Oh, let’s get this logo done.” It’s, “I’ve got an idea.” So for example, Mark rung up Nicole yesterday and he said, “I know we’ve gone in this direction with your font now, but I’ve just got an idea. What’d you think of this?” And it’s having that flexibility, and it’s just having someone within that company or an agency that’s thinking of your company in that way.

Lee:
So there’s two big things I’ve drawn from this, is setting the communication expectation and boundaries. So, obviously communication is key, there are tools we can use to communicate like email and text and all that sort of stuff. But what you’ve done, instead of making it super sexy sounding, “Oh, we have this automated system and we send communications and we have this big project management system, yada yada, yada.” You have simplified the entire process into, “We’re going to tell you what we’re going to do next, so you know what’s happening next. You’ve got a bigger picture from previous meetings, et cetera.”

Lee:
But, the communication process is we’re working these few days, and we always give you an update on the Friday. Excuse me, so that’s giving people an understanding of when they’re going to hear, that’s freeing up your time and essentially where me as the client, I’m always waiting for my update on Friday. I know when to expect things, so that that expectation has been set. Equally, the other thing I’ve kind of gathered from this is that you have assigned your clients to a like-minded team member, or like-minded team members in your company who are excited and also love the journey. So I can tell that they do, and I can tell that Nicole loves working with them again.

Lee:
Folks, listen to last week’s episodes and you can really hear that in Nicole’s voice as she describes everything that’s going on. So we’re going to have to cut short, because I am going to lose my voice soon. I got to have a drink or something, so thank you so much, Tom. I just want to do a real quick recap if my voice can do this, but last week we had Nicole on and she thought Design Box were freaking awesome. And, she talked about her rebrand.

Lee:
We’ve learnt from Tom a lovely smooth journey where he’s gone through a discovery process, and we’ve gone through conversations that we might not normally go through with regards to fonts, words, looking at alternative graphics, looking at alternative logos, et cetera. We’ve then gone through the concept stage, and we’ve left a dot, dot, dot because we understand that there is so much more to branding. And how long is a piece of string? Maybe she wanted presentations, maybe she also wanted videos, maybe X, Y, and Z.

Lee:
So we get that there is an ongoing process, but I think what we can surmise from all of this is two things. Number one, really important to have a process. And number two, it’s important to set the expectations with regards to the communication framework. So rather than saying, “This is how your project’s going to go, here is a really, really long Gantt chart for the next six months.” I think what you guys are doing really well is managing the communications on a weekly basis, and keeping people aware of what’s going on now and obviously setting a small expectation for the following week as well. I think that’s where you guys are kind of hitting the magic point there. Correct me if I’m wrong, does that sound right?

Tom:
Yes, pretty spot on. Yeah.

Lee:
Nice, I like it. Well, folks, you can connect with Tom over on Designbox.co.uk. You can go over to a Wunderstars.com as well to check out that brand. That’s where they W, but you say it Wunder. All of the links will be in the show notes. I do recommend that you check out last week’s episode as well. If you find my voice really sexy right now, let me know in the comments, Agencytrailblazer.com/321. So Tom, thank you so much for being on the show and we’ll have your back real soon.

Tom:
Thanks. Thanks for having me, Lee.

Lee:
Oh, and hi to the dogs.

Tom:
Cheers.

Lee:
Bye.

Tom:
Bye.