28:8 How to exceed expectations

Lee Matthew Jackson: Welcome to a conversation with me, Mr. Lee Matthew Jackson. And today we have on the show. It’s Jordan Johnson. How are you sir?

Jordan Johnson: I am good, how are you?

Lee Matthew Jackson: I’m doing great. We were just saying weren’t we, how we could probably do a bit of an ASMR podcast because of our quality of microphones.

Jordan Johnson: Oh yes. We could. Didn’t mean to mimic the accent.

Lee Matthew Jackson: That was the exact points you did that cracked me up earlier. Hang on. Crackle some paper. There we go.

Jordan Johnson: Oh yeah.

Lee Matthew Jackson: If you’re driving right now please pull over cause we might lull you to sleep with our voices. All right, we should probably not do that so we don’t get sued. So wake up, we’re all good. It’s Jordan Johnson from RipplePop guys. Jordan, thank you for coming on the show with an excellent microphone and a wonderful voice. I greatly appreciate that. If you don’t know who Jordan is, you can check out his website over at ripplepop.com and also Jordan, you’re going to tell us who you are right now. Go for it.

Jordan Johnson: All right. Yes. So, I’m Jordan. I’m from Chicago, born and raised, well, born in actually Indiana and way down in Kokomo and moved to Chicago when I was about three years old and been here ever since. I went to university in Chicago as well. I have been here pretty much ever since then, really never left. I did do a year in Denver, Colorado, but Chicago is home and that’s where I planned to be for probably a little while now.

Lee Matthew Jackson: Chicago. I did love Chicago. I’ve been there about two or three times now and absolutely loved it. Although realised on Sunday nothing was open. It was weird.

Jordan Johnson: What I tell people is just make sure to come when it’s warm. Don’t come when it’s cold. It’s a lot easier to not like it.

Lee Matthew Jackson: There is that yeah and the fact that it’s not like New York, New York’s just open 24, seven Chicago closes for Sunday. I couldn’t find anything open. I got really bored. But anyway, enough about Chicago, right on this podcast, we’ve actually invented time travel. I’d like to know how you got into development and into WordPress in general.

Jordan Johnson: Sure. Yes. So, I actually landed my first job, my first official sort of career in this space. Before I graduated college, I was actually hired at one of the biggest ad agencies in the world, Ogilvy and Mather. I got a job there and worked there for about a year and I kinda came to the realisation there and what tends to be the case with sort of those jobs is they’re sold as very, you know, creative free jobs where there’s a ping pong table and you know you can go play air hockey on your breaks and go get a free coffee and a massage in the afternoon. And they really try and play it up with a lot of perks and cool things. But at the end of the day, what I was really kind of finding was it still felt like I was working on an assembly line. So I think a lot of creatives can often feel this way when you get a big sort of corporate job as they try and you know, play it out that it’s this really cool creative thing. But then you find that you’re actually very sort of restricted and all you’re really doing is working on, you know, something, you know, someone got a project, they did their little tinkering and then they pass it on to you, you do your little tinkering and pass it on to the next person. And that really does feel like, or it felt like for me that there was really, there was not this sort of creative aspect that I was being sold at being at, you know, a big company like that that comes with all those nice perks.

Jordan Johnson: For me it was about after about a year where I started to try and consider some of my other options and you know, what else I could potentially try and explore because like I said, it really became more draining than it did sort of rewarding to work for a large company like that. So after Ogilvy, after about a year there, I left for a small startup in Chicago named Build This and that was my attempt at going from huge big company to small startup where you know, you have a lot of influence on the daily decision making. That was a huge sort of shock to the system of wow, you know, now I have to wear 30 hats during the day instead of one. That experience in itself is really valuable and kind of gave me that feeling of okay, I actually have some influence over decision making in the direction of a project rather than just being told what to do with an expected sort of outcome at Ogilvy, you know, it was, I was asked what can we do, you know, and that that sort of change in approach was really, really refreshing.

Jordan Johnson: I was there for about a year and then that company was actually purchased. Part of that purchase process was they kept pretty much only the CEO and CFO and then they scrapped the rest of the company. They were really just sort of buying it for the name Build This. So it was an unfortunate situation where me and one of my best friends that I’ve actually known for pretty much my entire life, we were both working there and we were both just kind of out on the street like, you know what happened. It was just an interesting situation to be in. And another funny thing that happened was the company that bought Build This didn’t want to keep a majority of the customers. So we were left with this really interesting opportunity where here’s a bulk of customers who need to be served that this company doesn’t want to keep.

Lee Matthew Jackson: That’s when Michael and I really put our heads together and decided, let’s try and find a way to serve these people and let’s try and find a way to sort of keep this going just under our own roof. So that’s really how the formation of RipplePop came about was, you know, I started at a big agency. It really wasn’t as satisfying or gratifying as as it was sort of played out to be. There was opportunity for growth and going up, but it still seemed like the same sort of monotonous sort of work where creativity is actually, you know, a facade in a sense. And so I moved to startup life and startup life was fun and exciting and different challenges every day. Then one day this happens in startup life. The rug gets pulled out from under you and you kind of have to decide, you know what you’re going to do next. In our case, luckily there was a batch of customers of clients who still wanted to work with us. So that’s when Mike and I really put our heads together and said, let’s try and find a way to make this work. And that’s really kind of around the birth time of RipplePop.

Lee Matthew Jackson: So what were you predominantly doing say in the startup? What we are kind of day to day and that you said you all many hats. Could you describe a few of the hats and a few of the types of projects you’re working on?

Jordan Johnson: Sure. Yeah, so my official title was creative director, which is kind of funny when I think about it because it was so, I don’t know, it’s just, it feels like a very official title.

Lee Matthew Jackson: Did they give you a beret and a scarf?

Jordan Johnson: No, I wish. Really for the most part what I was doing was meeting with customers all throughout the web development process. So I tend to work specifically in the web development space, but at Build This, they were doing all sorts of development, whether that be our arduino projects or you know, some really crazy custom coding for, you know, I don’t know banking systems or what not. They were doing really interesting projects, but that’s kind of not the space that I lived in. I mainly worked on the sort of web development part of the business, which was a new customer wants to build a website, let’s sit down, let’s have a discovery phase where we find out the project needs, let’s, you know, translate that over into some rough designs and sort of go from there. Throughout that entire process. I didn’t do the designs or anything. We had a design designer that we would work with, but I sort of oversaw, start to finish the project and then when it came actually down to creating the website, that’s where I was really getting more hands on.

Lee Matthew Jackson: Yeah. That’s Awesome. That sounds like fun. Now when you guys decided to go ahead and build your own, that was RipplePop that you will launching. Did you go straight into almost like a clone of what you had, where you were building websites for people or did you go straight into the muddle that we see today?

Jordan Johnson: Yeah, we did not actually jump right into the model that you see today. For the most part, we were kind of wrapping up other projects for customers. You know, kind of keeping the door open with some potential customers, which some came through and some didn’t. When we actually started, we kind of kept up these sort of custom development approach, which was you would, you know, sit down and talk with us. We would go through a design phase, approve the designs then go through the development and do all sorts of custom development. That could be, you know, anything from like Python Django to a Ruby on rails project to any sort of development stack that you can think of. We probably worked within during those initial days. That’s kind of where we started and what we, what we realised pretty quickly is that it’s just a very difficult game to play for a team of two. There are a lot of other, you know, companies, agencies, whatever, that you can go get a website build that’s really custom coded and custom tailored to your needs.

Jordan Johnson: There’s the issue of a sort of, you know, potential lack of trust with a team of two versus, you know, a company of 20 for building your custom app. So the problem that we were often facing was that it just felt like we were searching for the next big sale to keep us running for two to three months where all we were doing was fishing for the next big job that would keep the doors open.

Lee Matthew Jackson: That’s not the Ph phishing by the way for anyone who is listening. That’s like the f, fishing.

Jordan Johnson: So yes it was just very stressful.

Lee Matthew Jackson: Where you getting that kind of feeling of feast and famine as well, cause it sounds like, you’re trying to chase that big project to pay for the next two months or three months of operation. That’s kind of a very up and down scenarios isn’t it?

Jordan Johnson: Yeah, exactly. It’s very stressful but when you get the, you know, the next job it’s, it’s nice because you know, you even have runway after the job is complete where you can still pay your bills. You kind of have time off and all you’re doing is searching for the sale, but it really is not sustainable. We realised pretty quickly that it’s way too stressful and it isn’t sustainable to keep going to search for that next customer and really hoping that you land at 15k to 20k job to kind of keep the doors open. So that’s where we quickly realised that this is not really the model that we want to go after.

Lee Matthew Jackson: What was the catalyst for change for you guys and what was, what did that change first look like?

Jordan Johnson: So it really came down to, we saw that, there was another company in this space and their name was a WP Curve and we saw that they were purchased by GoDaddy. With that purchase, it basically left a lot of customers very angry. And we saw a huge opportunity there because they were selling a simple $79 a month WordPress only support plan. It was a single site licence and I believe they were, I can’t remember the figure, but it was in the millions they were purchased by GoDaddy. We saw on forums and we saw on other websites people saying, you know, hey guys, what’s a good alternative to WP Curve? And that was when we really figured out, okay there’s, there’s an opportunity here for us to answer that question. There’s an opportunity for us to provide this service. The alternative, because really the answers were sparse in terms of people not really having a great other company to turn to. There were a few in the space back when we first started, there are a lot more now. So yeah, we saw a huge opportunity when we saw that WP Curve was purchased by GoDaddy and that was, that was our, sort of light bulb went off moment in our head of let’s offer something just like that, you know, they were able to make that model work. It’s based on monthly recurring revenue, which is stability in this space or in general in business. Knowing how much and expecting how much money you’re going to have coming in the door each month is a huge weight off your shoulders. So that’s, that’s when we saw the opportunity and that’s when Mike and I kind of switched our model. It was maybe six months to a year in of really giving our own thing a shot, giving RipplePop a shot that we decided, all right, this model makes more sense.

Jordan Johnson: Let’s build a plan that’s similar and we have a client set right now that we can sell it to. So the original days where, hey, there’s something else out there that works really well. It works so well that GoDaddy bought it and it made a lot of people angry that GoDaddy bought it. So let’s be able to reach out to these people who are angry and say, hey, there’s this new service and they are very hands on and they’re very friendly. It’s very approachable and it really is a good alternative for people looking to keep that sort of approach. Whereas when GoDaddy or a large company buys something like that, it often means the quality will go down because it’s now a mass product versus a more sort of niche product. So that’s sort of the opportunity that we saw and that’s sort of the opportunity that we took in the early days was hey, here’s something that’s working. Let’s re-engineer this as our own thing and let’s try and capture some of these angry customers with WP Curve and present them with this new alternative.

Lee Matthew Jackson: I like that you said re-engineer because what you are offering does seem very different, especially when you have the terms such as your own dedicated developer, which I spotted and I’m thinking, holy moly, I know how much is involved in development. We do this everyday. I’ve got a team of developers. Equally so is your price, your price is completely different. They were starting at something like $79 or $99 a month I think for WordPress support. Whereas you guys have got a completely different model. Can you kind of unpack the model a bit and also help me understand, I think that dedicated developer, which kind of scares me a bit.

Jordan Johnson: Sure. Yes. So really the model that we have now, which is $370 a month, how it sort of changed and evolved to get there was Mike and I were playing the $79 a month single site support plan game for a while, for a little over a year as well doing that. It was nice because it was a very limited client set. Two people can only handle so many clients and once you’re at that cap, you’re happy, you’re paid. You don’t need to worry too much. But in a sense, it’s not a business, right? If Mike and I, you know, something terrible were to happen, the business instantly fails. There’s no fail safe in place. There’s nothing to do, if something goes wrong, it’s all on Mike and I. So we kind of figured that we need to move this in a way that’s a service that can have employees that we can sort of delegate this work to and our focus can be growing the business and systematising the business. So that’s when we decided that, all right, let’s try and play the bigger game here. That’s when we realised as well as just there are other competitors in this space, there are a lot of them and a lot of them had a lot more traction than we had because like I said, Mike and I were focused on serving a limited client set.

Jordan Johnson: We weren’t running Facebook ads, we weren’t doing any sort of aggressive marketing. We had a limited customer set and, and we weren’t really worried about the world outside of that. So by the time we did start worrying about the world outside of that, there were a lot of people in the space that were making it much more complicated to stand out. Where if everybody has a $79 support plan and the next guy comes out with a $59 one, you know you’re playing the race to the bottom. And so we, we decided that let’s try and rethink this in a way that just makes more sense. That’s no longer a race to the bottom of who can offer the cheapest plan and get the most done because that’s just a game that when you play, you realise that nobody’s ever happy when you’re offering a cheap plan. It was $79 a month and we would have people who were basically in our live chat and getting all up in arms over $79 a month. How that’s too expensive for them. And so, I mean they obviously don’t realise because they hadn’t signed up yet, just how much they were getting for their money. But it really becomes sort of crazy when you think about how $79 a month we were getting people complaining to us about the price saying that this is way too expensive for me to have a team to handle my website needs. That was just a huge red flag of wow so, when you’re playing with the customers who want the cheapest, they’re always going to want cheaper and they’re always going to want better for their money.

Jordan Johnson: You know, well my friend over here got, you know, 14 things done in one day on this service and they’re actually cheaper than you guys. It’s just like, it becomes very frustrating to try and deal with sort of low tier customers. They expect a lot and they want to pay very little. So what we decided to do was let’s try and figure out a different angle, a different game. I often say a game, but it does feel that way sometimes in retrospect. So we decided let’s try and figure out what no one else has figured out. And it’s funny because on the WP Curve blog, their blog was actually really interesting in the fact that they were extremely transparent. They would write blog posts all the time, but every month they would have a blog post on their growth numbers, how many people churned, why people churned, things that they were improving about the service, things that they were trying, things that failed. And they were very open about everything that they were doing. And that was really interesting because when Mike and I went and looked back at their blog again and again, we found a post where they explained that they couldn’t figure out a way to offer an agency plan where they couldn’t figure out a way to serve agencies with many sites because what they were having people do is, well, you have 10 sites, you need to sign up for 10 $79 plans. Oh, you have 20 sites, 20 $79 plans. And that sort of model just wasn’t working for agencies. They didn’t really want to do, you know, individual plans for all of their sites. WP Curve, actually, their posts highlighted how they just couldn’t figure out how to structure an agency style plan. We noticed then when looking at all of our competition that nobody had figured out in agency plan that nobody really had any sort of solution for, I’m an agency, I have over a hundred sites, but I just want to pay one price for help across all of them.

Jordan Johnson: That’s where, again, it’s just another light bulb goes off of, okay, this is the niche, this is what we’re going to do is figure out the agency plan. So that’s what the RipplePop model of today is really based off of is we’re no longer playing that $79 a month. We are playing, still a cheap alternative to a part time or full time developer. But that’s sort of our angle is you’re not ready to hire part time or full time, but you need somebody to handle some overflow. That’s really the space that we’ve come to find success in is, you know, let’s figure out that plan where we can serve as many sites as needed at one price and then we can sell to agencies. And that relationship is a lot different than selling to a mom and pop shop who just $79 a month is a lot of money to them.

Jordan Johnson: Where an agency $370 a month is nothing. It’s very cheap. It’s affordable, it’s a much better alternative than trying to find an employee that’s a good fit. It’s a service that has a brand and a name and a reputation that you can hire and you can cancel and it’s much more flexible than sort of the traditional approach of getting additional help or developer help. So that’s where the 370 plan was, was born out of was this idea that we need to figure out how to serve agencies and people with many sites. And out of that, it breeds a lot more interesting relationships where now when I have conversations with prospective clients we’ll get on the phone and we’ll talk about what our service is, but then we’ll spend another 30 minutes talking about Facebook ad campaigns or interesting things that they’re trying at their agency and interesting ways we can partner together in larger ways. And so this whole shift has really opened up the door where if I’m working with Dan’s donuts down the street we’re not going to have larger conversations about, you know, potential ways to partner and work together at a larger capacity.

Lee Matthew Jackson: You’ll get larger though with Dan’s donuts guaranteed.

Jordan Johnson: So yeah, that’s, that’s the shift that we made. That was about, I think a little over probably about two years now. And that shift has been really our differentiating factor of how we’re going to market, how we’re going to attract customers. We were, like I said, we we’re playing a totally different game now where we don’t, I mean we can still serve a single site owner. It’s just now we’re a very expensive plant for a single site owner and that’s okay to us. If people want to pay the premium, they will get the premium of that our service has to offer. But it is a much different sort of space that we’re in now and how we advertise or how we attract new customers. Yeah, it’s just, like I said, it’s just a much different game.

Lee Matthew Jackson: It reminds me very similarly, we had Russ on maybe two or three years ago from design pickle and he scaled his agency massively by offering kind of unlimited graphic design for, I think it was $350 a month, about three years ago. They’re still going, I think they’re $399 a month. They’ve scale to their business over a million plus in revenue. And then you’ve also got other companies as well who have come up as well like Deer Designer, who also do some things similar with graphic design. They will allow you to kind of do multiple brands and you’ll put a request in, but they’ve got specific rules with regards to those requests that come in and what sort of work they will do, etc. So how do you protect yourself, because I’m imagining now an agency with say 50 websites that they might want you to be looking after. How do you kind of protect yourself from an agency hitting you with five different requests or even 10 different requests on any one day without getting overwhelmed? Or do you have some sort of system of having so many sites to be the responsibility of one developer just like say Deer Designer or design pickle might have one designer in charge of two or three clients?

Jordan Johnson: Yeah. So it’s all a matter of, setting expectations. That’s something that will, that always comes into play with a business where if your customer’s expectations are different than what your service provides, there’s gonna be some rough water. And so, you know, you have to learn that lesson sometimes the hard way. Really for us it’s a matter of making sure the customer feels informed, whether that’s through on-boarding processes or you know, making sure they get the emails that explain how the service works and everything after they sign up and having help docs and things like that available for frequently asked questions or guides on the best way to submit requests. In general, if we do have a customer who they load us up with 40 requests in one day, that isn’t a problem on our end, right. If the customer understands that just because I loaded up 45 requests today doesn’t mean all 45 get done. You know, if they have that understanding, then there’s no push back in a sense we’ll say, ‘hey, thanks for the 45 requests, you know, at our current sort of work rate we would expect these to be done by, you know, a week and a half from now to two to three weeks from now’. If they’re okay with that, then all their job is, is prioritising those requests as we work through them. If they need to move something up to get done sooner, they can do that. So it really is just a matter of managing expectations and making sure they understand, you know, just what they’re getting and in a sense what we try and deliver and touching on kind of what you asked earlier that I didn’t touch on is the dedicated developer aspect, which is what our service provides is a dedicated developer and that is a developer we assigned directly to their account.

Jordan Johnson: That person handles maybe 60 to 80% of the requests that they send in. We also do have a customer care team. They’re more of the general support. What they do is they intake requests from customers if they need to follow up with questions. If it’s a smaller, easy request, they can handle it often and keep the developer’s plate sort of clean for larger, more complicated requests. The way that that team sort of works together is the customer care team is generally us hours. They’re doing intake, they’re prepping requests for developers and then our development team works overnight. So as long as the customer understands that workflow, as long as they’re not demanding something get done the same day, there usually isn’t too much push back. And really we try and make it clear because really one of our main sales channels is just our live chat on our website. In those chats, you know, I try and make it very clear on just just what to expect. Our plan is unlimited in the sense that you can have unlimited sites under one plan. Our plan is unlimited in the sense that you can also submit unlimited requests in a day. But where the expectation comes into play is how much work you, you expect to get done a day. What we aim to do is around two to four requests per day per customer. So there’s not always an easy translation. Some people want, they’ll happen chat and say, how many hours of work am I getting a day from my developer? And I always have to respond, it’s not really like that. It’s not really a measurement on our end of every customer gets one and a half hours and that’s how we stay profitable. I realise there is value to that, but we aren’t trying to be a sort of very strict and rigid service.

Jordan Johnson: We understand that agencies, they’re made up of people who just want some times some understanding and not to just be shot back with, hey, this request is too big. Where what we’ll do is if you send in something that’s too big, we’ll break it down into multiple parts, we’ll make sure those parts get added to the developer queue and then we’ll let the customer know, hey, we broke this down into three stages. These three stages should be done by tomorrow. So we often try and take out the variables in a sense and try and not just shoot back a no, this doesn’t fit under our service. We really do try and be as helpful as possible in all scenarios because that, that sort of human touche is what you know, how you handle those situations often is the difference between a client cancelling at the end of the month or you know, staying with you for six months to a year where if you just approach it with some understanding and Oh, I’ll go the extra mile for you today. That often goes a lot farther than a lot of more rigid services. Imagine where they might kick back a request and say, hey, we just can’t do this.

Lee Matthew Jackson: I like what you’re saying with regards managing expectations, but also I think what we can learn here as well is understanding the expectations that we should have from ourselves. So there is this natural bias for I think many agency owners to want to respond and to be able to do everything and to deliver everything straight away. So I see those 40 requests come in and I’m like, holy crap, how am I going to do all this today? I’m going to work now until midnight to try and keep everybody happy. Whereas what you’re saying quite clearly here is not only managing the expectations of the client and saying, okay, there are only so many hours in a day this is what we’ll be able to do. We’re going to split this out into phases and it’s going to happen over the next few weeks. But equally it’s having that expectation on yourself as well in managing your own time and your own sanity and saying reasonably, this is what we can achieve. We can achieve two to three of four small processes per client per day. This is what we expect of ourselves and if it’s going to go beyond that, then we need to set the client expectation and we need to have these communication points.

Lee Matthew Jackson: I was worried when I was thinking, okay, you’ve got a dedicated developer and it’s $370 a month and I’m thinking you’ve got like one person working full time for an agency doing like a million things. But that’s clearly not what’s going on. People can submit unlimited requests, but that’s within the remit of a developer working with them on things and certain things take time. I also like it as well how you pointed out with regards to the hours that people work. It’s actually results that you’re paying for as opposed to the amount of hours that somebody does anyway. So if it takes somebody five seconds to run an update, then that’s a completely different story. Now I did notice on your website that it just talk about nightly backups. So I’m an agency with 50 sites. Are you also kind of doing all of the backups for all of those sites? Again, how do you protect yourself with all those? Cause that’s again unlimited website. I know one of my client’s websites is like 6GB and I wouldn’t be classed as a huge agency.

Jordan Johnson: Yeah, I mean it is something we do run into, the interesting part about working with agencies is most of them actually already have some of these things in place. So for us it’s just a nicety if you don’t, which it tends to fill the clients who don’t have it and most of the larger ones, people with over 50 sites or something like that tend to already have this sort of stuff in place to protect themselves. So it really often just comes down to the few clients here and there who don’t. We have the ability to take those and to offer that sort of insurance where, like I said, most clients already have it in place and they will invite us into whatever system they have, their backup storage so that we can restore them if something goes wrong as we’re working.

Jordan Johnson: For the customers who don’t, we have our own backups to supply and that that really is just a hit we take on our end in terms of monthly costs where it’s worth it to us to be able to offer that. It’s not baked into the price in any sort of way. It was actually decision made after the fact of deciding our price that, you know, wouldn’t it be nice to just make sure that that insurance is there to make sure that, you know, no matter what we have a safety net for ourselves and the customer and since most of our customers they have customers and that’s actually who we’re serving at the end of the day. You don’t want to get caught in the situation of making, in our case, making our customer look bad, which is the agency, right? If a, if a site goes down and we didn’t have a backup on our end and the agency didn’t either, the agency then has to go with their tail between their legs to their customer and say, Hey, your site is down because of these guys. But they’re not going to say that because we’re sort of working in the shadows often where you know that the end customer is not aware always that RipplePop has been doing the edits. They just think that the agency that they hired, they’re the ones doing it. And so it’s, it’s just a big, you know, obviously safety net for us, but like I said, most agencies in this space will often have their own solution in place and we’ll just sort of meet them in the middle and come into their service so that we have access to those.

Lee Matthew Jackson: Awesome. Folks, if you want to find out more information, check out ripplepop.com there’s a cool video with Jordan. Jordan, I have one more question. It’s a very important question actually. No, no it’s not. On your nice graphic. As I go down to your endless search for the right developers over there is a picture of your personal developer. Is that a stock photo of a guy or is that actually a guy who works for you?

Jordan Johnson: No that’s actually Jeremiah. He is a full time employee with this. He’s real.

Lee Matthew Jackson: Yes. He’s real. Folks, Jeremiah is real. Checkout ripplepop.com for a picture of Jeremiah who looks really, really nice. That’s a great smile and I feel like I want to get to know that guy. Is that why you picked the picture?

Jordan Johnson: Out of all of our developers, we have obviously our team photos and whatnot. For some reason when Mike and I were going through them we both did like a random selection of who we think that picture should be. You know and we both picked Jeremiah so there must be some charm in that photo.

Lee Matthew Jackson: Absolutely, 100%. Folks, check out ripplepop.com just for Jeremiah’s picture cause he absolutely looks lovely. Like the sort of guy you just want to go hang out with and have a beer as well as asking you to develop your websites. So right Jordan, you’ve been a legend. Thank you so much. This is definitely a very unique model. I have never heard of this until your Facebook ad hit me, which took me by surprise and obviously it raised alarm bells initially for me. You’ve definitely helped me not feel so panicky, especially talking with regards to things like setting expectations and understanding the relationship you have with each client, and equally at the same time, if you feel like a client isn’t going to be right for you, either gonna need to too much work and that’s going to put too much pressure on you and you on your resources, you’re obviously going to say that as well. So this all makes so much more sense to me. I’m intrigued to see where you guys go over the next a year or so, especially given the dramatic success of services like in the design industry, at least of people like Design Pickle, etc. So thanks for the time you’ve given us. Again, ripplepop.com folks, if you want to find out some more information. So Jordan, all that’s left for me to say is thank you and have a wonderful day.

Jordan Johnson: Yeah, thank you. It’s been a pleasure.

Lee Matthew Jackson: Alrighty. Enjoy Chicago. Cheerio.