49:6 The power of a mindset shift

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Lee:

Welcome to the Trailblazer FM podcast. My name is Mr. Lee Matthew Jackson, and today we are joined by the one and only taller in real life. It's Mr. Daniel Hutt. How are you doing, mate?

Daniel:

Hey, man. How's it going? Yeah, like I said, I think my missus has messed with the chair and I can't get it any higher. And the camera is literally just above my screen and I can't get it any lower without clipping it. So I'm just like, I'm trying to sit up as straight as I can or I have to just squat. But yeah, I am slightly taller in real life.

Lee:

Folks, if you don't know what I'm talking about, please come over to the YouTube channel where we've been recording these podcasts live and you can see what we're talking about. But we're having a good time. In fact, I just had to replace my chair the other day, mate, because the gas cylinder went and I had the exact same problem.

Daniel:

It just went down.

Lee:

It just disappeared off screen. Folks, today we're just going to catch up with Daniel and find out what's been going on in his life. This is going to be a different type of episode because very often we talk about how to grow your agency and how to generate more leads and bam, bam, bam, bam, and how to hunker down as a business owner and keep going and don't give up. And we're going to talk about the opposite, not necessarily about giving up, but actually just changing your mind on things and doing something different. So before we go into that, Daniel, I'd really love just to hear your initial journey of the agency that you have or had built, etc. So give us a bit of a background of the hook.

Daniel:

So years ago, I write a lot of content about paid ads and things like that. I've had crazy results with blog content where I've had 50,000 readers in two days, things like that. The top 10 articles of all time on growth hackers and inbound at all. All these things. So, I used to have an SEO agency. I'm not fantastic at managing people, or at least I wasn't at the time because I had this massive growth. So over time, I started to pivot towards more of a scalable product model. So I have a teaching platform where I teach content marketing, but more specifically, not just writing, but actually how to distribute and promote it so that you can leverage it more. I was doing all of that up until... I still do it actually, COVID, and everything obviously went crazy. I think overnight I went from about 10 grand a month to about $400 a month.

Daniel:

For about 14 months, which really sucked. I started doing agency work again but doing less of it but boutique client work. So a couple of people, very high ticket, things like that. And that's where I am now where I still run my platform and that still works really well. I've got it to a point where it's all automated. So i haven't spoken to a customer in six months or more. But I'm the head of content for a platform in Canada called Zero to Mastery, and they teach people how to be software engineers and things like that. I saw these guys, I was I saw they were looking for people and they got to 750,000 customers with their platform in the first year. I was like, I would have worked for these people for free just to figure out how they were doing it because that's insane growth. I've been working with them now for about a year and a half and just juggling the two things at the same time, having fun and just enjoying New Zealand summer and Stuff like that. 

Lee:

That's nuts as well. It's practically like you're on two different sides of the planet, but I guess maybe you're closer to Canada than you are here, actually. I don't know. I'm not good at geography.

Daniel:

We work asynchronously, so it's great because I can produce work, hand it in stuff, get feedback and things from the owners of the company because it was a small team. I took over for some of the owners roles because they were handling that as you do when you're a small agency sometimes. I hand that off to them and just double check it meets tone and voice and things. They go to bed as I get up, I make the changes, do the work, do the next thing. Then that way they've got a 24 hours work cycle, really, where stuff is going on because you don't need to be there at the same time to write. If anything, I don't want to talk to anyone when I'm writing because I just want to just get on with it because it makes it so much more difficult. I can just focus music on type of way.

Lee:

How did you approach them? Well, yeah, let's just find out. How did you approach them to get in with that gig?

Daniel:

When COVID happened and I was doing $400 a month, I was still creating content for my course platform because I had customers on there who pay a subscription, so I'm creating stuff for them. I was still doing that but obviously you can't really survive off $100 a week. It doesn't even cover your rent. I started doing blog posts and things for friends because I've been in the industry for years and doing that. Then started looking for higher ticket $400, $500, $600 an article where it's really detailed and in depth and difficult subjects and things. Then I think I came across these guys because I was juggling five or six, seven different clients, and it was just me. I didn't want to bring on any of the writers or anything like that because I've done an agency in the past. I remember at some point I was paying them but not paying myself because you go through this growth curve where it's problems and dealing problems and stuff. I decided, yeah, boutique clients, but I was doing a few of them and I was like, okay, well, can I get someone? Well, I just do one or two, but they pay everything.

Daniel:

I can get a contract with them for X amount of time. I found these guys on Angel List, which is where a lot of big software and tech companies and things look to hire. I saw the role and basically they'd stopped looking into it. They hadn't really had any good applicants for about seven months or so. I came up with the entire strategy. I looked at the site, what they needed for content, where they needed to go. I wrote out the entire thing. I recorded a video of me talking to them, explaining all the things that I did and how I met the criteria. I wrote a book. They want someone who has done work like this article. I'm like, Well, I wrote that article. That's the guest post I did. I did this. All these different references and things that they were asking for their ideal person, I either wrote that or I taught the person who's wrote that article or so on. It was just this real, like crossover between these two things. Much less stressful working with one client. Obviously, I'm not just writing content for them now. I'm also just responsible for hitting goals and traffic goals and things like that.

Daniel:

But it's great because I'm seeing how they grow and then applying it again to my own platform. I'm loving it, man. It's so much less stressful than a couple of things, and I've started to build a team on there as well. I have editors and writers. So all the stuff I used to do for an agency, I now do for them, but I'm not having to foot the bill. They're paying all these people and I'm just managing it. So it's really easy, if I'm totally honest, compared to stuff I've done in the past. The work is difficult, but it's not as stressful. I really enjoy what I'm doing.

Lee:

And were there any reservations? When we run our own businesses, even for me, the idea of just a contract that might take up more of my time and mean that I'm not a slave to because it's probably the wrong word but my time is pretty much has to be focused on that so I can deliver. Were there any reservations of I'm not going to have the freedom that I want. I want to be my own boss. I don't want to be working for other people or be led by them. Did you have any of those reservations or were you just like, I need more than $100 a month. This is $100 a week. This is me.Do it. 

Daniel:

I did have and I was already earning. Before that point, I already was very comfortable. I was making, I don't know, five, six grand a month at the time, so it was fine. But it was a lot of juggling. And sometimes I wouldn't get article briefs from people and I get them all at once. And everyone wants everything done for Friday and it's Thursday thing like that. And so it was a bit of a pain. But it was honestly everything I did have those reservations, but the contract was the same amount or more than what I was already making thing. It was asynchronous on my own boss. I've only had two I've spoke to you more in the last six months when I have almost two years working at this place. I've only done two hours of meetings the entire time. We don't do any calls or anything like that. So it's run exactly how I want to work with stuff. I'm basically a freelancer or a contractor doing agency work, but just with them as my primary client and that's it, which I know is dangerous, but I've also got two years with them and we're smashing goals.

Daniel:

It's like it's easy. But yeah, I definitely like when I looked at a couple of things because I looked at a couple of different positions at different places for this and I had that because certain things I was like, am I going to be able to do this? Because I've been my own boss for like six years, seven years. Am I going to be able to fit into that thing? But I was really lucky in that it's the exact same work I was doing, but with one client and that's it. I pick the content we write, I get it all done. All I do is write a report each month and send it across and that's it.

Lee:

Sounds amazing. I think everyone's probably like, What's your role right now, including me? That sounds pretty awesome. I guess the reason why I wanted to chat with you about this as well is that, frankly, there are still out there some very stressed out agency owners. Maybe they struggle to manage people, maybe they have the exact same problem with the clients who give you the stuff on Thursday and want it Friday, and they're just getting to the end of their tether but are still turning down dream contracts like you accepted. Maybe out of a sense of pride or maybe out of a sense of, I'm meant to be a businessman, this would be perceived as a failure if I accept this or whatever. I wanted you on just to encourage people, really, that there is absolutely no shame in taking on an epic contract. Clearly, you're having fun.

Daniel:

Honestly, man, I lost three or four Kgs almost immediately. It was just way easier than juggling all these things and doing a 16 hours day on a Friday trying to get stuff done and things like that. There is that gap, right? There's that chasm you got to leap as an agency owner between where everything is running smoothly and you've got a backlog of stuff coming in and things like that. It does have to be the right contracts. I fired the old contracts that I had. I was like, Sorry, I'm not working with you guys anymore. Nothing personal about any of that. It's just this is where all my focus is per hour, I make more writing for these than I would if I wrote yours and so on. Some of them would actually even be higher, but it's just like, I can't do the above. So I might as well do the one that at the end of the month makes a lot more instead of one off things.

Lee:

Well, as you said, the other thing, you said earlier that people would say it's a bit dangerous relying on the one client, but you also have the skill and the talent to be able to fall back on it as well and say, if that company was no more zero to mastery, decided to shut doors tomorrow, you've done the work before for other people, you can fall back on that and very quickly scale up enough income to survive.

Daniel:

This is the cool thing is that I do have this productised automated business. Anything that I'm doing in here, to an extent, I can use as case studies to bring in new customers, so automated customers and things like that for the subscription business. They also have a platform and they've asked if I want to create a course for them as well. As I'm growing them, I've got sales on there, which is great because a lot of the teachers have bought houses and things like that from the amount of sales they're making and whatever else. There is a contract. If everything just died off, I'd still have to be paid out for that amount of time, which would be better because I wouldn't be doing anything for X amount of months and still be paid. It does suck in that I don't have as much time to do the things that I want to do on my side, the primary business before. But I'm picking up skills and stuff that maybe I might not have focused on or pushed away from with the agency. I wasn't great, admittedly, at managing people when I first started. I would put too much on.

Daniel:

I would share any problems and things like that that's going on when they didn't need to know it or whatever else, or I would give too much information and then it would overload writers and then they freak out and things like that. Whereas now I'm slowly moving people through steps and steps. The writings come on, the editing has come on. The only thing that's slowing us down is just getting everything published in the blog just because the system we use is a bit slow, but that's it.

Lee:

Has it freed up? You've said this has allowed you to develop new skills. Has it also allowed you to pursue anything in a personal life, maybe with your partner or just personally, etc. For example, you told me you've literally been beaten up at Jujitsu just before this call. What does it freed up for you?

Daniel:

I have a lot more flexible time. There's Jujitsu classes at 5:30, 7 o'clock, 11 in the morning. And so as long as I've hit stuff, I know I've got things done, I can do whatever. I'm really lucky in that the people that I'm working with want quality over anything else. So if it's a day late, but it's better than everything else out there, that's fine. If anything, we wouldn't publish it if it wasn't better. So we're focused on that more than anything else. And then also understanding, like we're training people up and things like that. It takes time to get to that ramp where you're doing this stuff. But yeah, it gives me a bunch of flexibility. I've been doing Jujitsu now for almost two years. I started before I was working with these guys, but I can just be on a Friday, it's 10 o'clock, I go off, I do a class from 11 to 1, I come back, I edit all the stuff and get stuff set up for Monday, and that's it. I do check in because of the time difference because the Friday is my Saturday because I'm in New Zealand, so we're ahead of everyone.

Daniel:

I check in on messages and stuff, but people are really awesome about it. Then the great thing for me on a Monday is I get in, I start writing, I don't speak to anyone for another 24 hours. 

Lee:

Nice. The other thing that occurred to me, mate, is that you're saying about, again, not being able to manage people, giving your writers too much information, maybe telling the management too much when they just didn't need to know all things I've done many, many times in the past. A lot of us as agency owners go from... We're in college, we learned design or web design or development, whatever it is, and then we rushed into business. We've not actually had that experience as it were of working with a fully fledged team, etc. So we bring on and build those mistakes up as an agency. So we end up almost becoming like a monster agency. That's exactly where I was back in 2007, 2008, we were a monster agency as in we were monster in size to me, but more monster in just we had no systems, we had terrible processes, I was a terrible boss, I was always stressed out, etc. And very often I think it's highly valuable for a business owner to say, you know what, I think I might have just screwed all of this up and it might be good just to take a break and go and learn some new skills with another business.

Lee:

So again, I'm not advocating everyone close their business down right now. But if you are at the absolute end of your tether and you're just like, Why am I doing this agency anymore? I know this podcast is there to encourage you to build your agency up, but also sometimes we just need to take a step back and take a break and learn new skills and experience new things.

Daniel:

I think that's the thing as well. It's like we push for growth and we're pushing the cart with the square wheels and we can't stop because it's like, well, then the cart will stop thing. But if you actually just stop for a second and reassess, it can make so much difference. I say this all the time, but if I ever seem smart, it's because I made so many mistakes and I try and learn from them. When I came into this role here, I started systems and processes immediately from day one because I knew that I wanted to create a course on their platform as well. I have editing guides and writing guides and style guides and thing like that. When we were chatting with my boss and we wanted to bring on editors and stuff, I created a 26 page writing guide so the writers can improve the content that they're putting out, so it requires less editing. Editing guide, guidelines, style guides, everything. If anyone's not sure, they can just follow that and it all meets it. What was the company I saw the other day? I think it's Grammarly. They've just... This is off topic, but they've produced this option for a style guide.

Daniel:

Grammarly is a tool where basically it tells you if you're doing typos and stuff. But it's like a business option where you can create a style guide and when your writers are on it, it will edit the content to meet your style guide. So if you have certain... If headlines are always a certain way, if you always refer to web dev instead of Web Developer, it'll edit all that for you based on your guide, which is super, super helpful. Now even the editors can just click on those things for those settings and it just changes it all. But yeah, systems and processes, taking the time to do that, giving yourself a little bit of breathing room. Oh, my God. It's life changing. And you come back into it at the same level or higher with far less stress because it's just like, Okay, well, everything is working out. And like you said earlier as well, you become an agency often because you're really good at one thing that you do personally. And then all of a sudden you're scaling up and now you're trying to teach other people to do it. And now you're moving out of that thing that you did, which was your skill set into a skill that you don't have into all these different things, which is suddenly you're managing people and constantly on the calls, sales calls with clients and things like that.

Daniel:

And it's learning to play to your strengths instead. Maybe it's better off you are still writing content and have someone else to manage the people. Bring those in instead. And then that way, you actually still enjoy the things that you're doing as well because for a lot of us, it's usually a creative outlet. That's why we build sites, it's why we write blogs, it's why we record videos.

Lee:

Absolutely. I'm thinking as well, you joined this business and you're like, Right, I'm going to do these processes and procedures. I'm going to do... Essentially, it sounds like all of the things that you've learned from being in business, you can then go and apply because businesses that have you then come into them and do all of that, they haven't been doing it either. So to have somebody come in and say, Look, I've learned the hard way that this is what I should do. So I'm going to implement it for you. You come in like, This is not a man. This is a God. Because they don't have that knowledge or experience to carry on.

Daniel:

It's also, I think, like I was saying, they're stuck in it. They're the one person doing that thing and they know these things need to be done, but they don't have time and they're juggling that and they're doing payroll and they're doing whatever else. It's super stressful. You want someone who can come in and just slot into that position and do those things. One of the first things I did before I even started to write content for them was to fix the content they already had and optimize it and things like that. I think traffic went up 30 % before we even created anything new. Now as we rank higher and things like that, we get even more and more to the point where I think that we're saying last time when we were playing with schema and stuff, we get over two, two and a half million impressions in Google now with maybe 50 blog posts. I can't give exact revenue metrics and stuff, but it's doing very well just fixing the things that needed to be done that I learned the hard way and people didn't have a chance to do themselves.

Lee:

Now, I've learned the hard way that to pander to the algorithms, you have to talk about certain things. I'm going to say AI, and that will now be in the title. How has AI and Chat GPT and all of that stuff, which has been around for a long time but obviously now is becoming more mainstream over the last few months since Chat GPT went crazy, has that added any benefit?

Daniel:

1. million users in five days.

Lee:

I know it's nuts in it. Has that added any benefit to you? Do you see Chat GPT as part of your future because you are very much into automation and all that stuff, or are you all human made only?

Daniel:

So I'm literally writing a blog post on this tomorrow about Chat GPT and coding and how it fits in and what our goals are and stuff. There's limitations of some of these tools. They're trained on models from 2020, 2021, so they don't always have up to date. I think now, if you've got the latest version, it will scrape the internet to try and find more data and things like that. The tool is great only if you have foundational knowledge to then apply to it. You can build a house for bricks, but how many bricks do you need? How tall does it need to be? How wide? All these things. And if you don't know all that stuff, all these people are spouting about how amazing it is, but it's don't swear, but it's just given them SHIT information and they think they're amazing. For anyone.

Lee:

Who can't spell, he said shit.

Daniel:

Yeah, it's just given them shit. They think it's gospel because it's like because. It's a language model tool. It's conversational and it seems like you're talking to this amazing AI from the future. When in reality, it's just really good at conveying information almost like a human, but the information is sometimes incorrect or you've asked it the wrong thing and it's given the best estimation to what you've asked. With all that in mind, I still think you should be learning how to use it because if you start learning how to use it now with whatever skill set you've got, it's going to make it so much easier. We use this CMS for the blog, and it's a bit of a pain because on WordPress, I can literally copy and paste and an article is up and that's it. For this, I've got to add HTML code in by hand. I've got to input images. Then I've got to take the image code, optimize it, bring it back, put it in, take the alt text. It takes me literally hours to do these things. I was on Chat GPT today. It can literally tell me how to, in Python, scrape all the images that are on there, optimize them, then put them back in the position and create a script for it.

Daniel:

I have very basic coding knowledge, but that's going to save me probably about 30 hours a year in doing these things because it doesn't exist yet for this tool. Heck, I could put that on a website and sell it, and people who use the same platform would probably then buy it for $20. Those things. As a writer, AI content is a helpful tool to help you structure content. You can ask questions and things and say, Hey, I want to talk about this topic. What's the main subheads that people have? Okay, so they're all talking about this, things like that. Okay, well, I want to talk about these things. What's the logical order for it? I can use that as inspiration without me having to open up 30 tabs. But Google doesn't want AI content because they want expertise and authority. They don't want content that is quoting stuff from 2021, which is no longer relevant. Maybe that framework or language isn't working that way anymore and you're writing a post about it. You're super excited because it took you 40 seconds to write a blog post. Also, these AI tools are working with search engines to say, Hey, this was written by a machine.

Daniel:

And Then Google is saying, Okay, well, we're not going to rank it. Thanks for letting us know, thing. It's like you're just shooting yourself in the foot to put all this stuff up there that might not be accurate information. There's pros and cons in every industry of how to use it, but 100 % get on it because it is going to be huge in the next few years. So if you do know how to code and you do know how to create one of these things.

Lee:

I'm watching that as well, mate. What was that?

Daniel:

We get poisonous spiders here, so I have to just check. But that is a mof. That was fine.

Lee:

Okay.

Daniel:

We're good. But there was one... Was it me and you the other day or a different podcast and one came down like this? Oh, my gosh. It landed like that right next to my face.

Lee:

It wasn't me. I'd remember that.

Daniel:

I screamed and had to move. Anyway, I have to do an interview.

Lee:

Remember, folks, YouTube.

Daniel:

It just almost got me. But yeah, if you do know how to code and you did know how to script and stuff, you can ask it to do that stuff. Then it'll do an outline and you can go, Okay, well, this is wrong, so fix it for this. Then this is wrong, and fix it for that. It'll do 60 % of the initial work for you, and it took an hour instead of five. Now you can go to a Jutsu class or whatever else and get working on it and whatever. You're going to get better output, easier to do things. You can write automations and scripts that are going to save you a lot of time in the long run, but you can't just have no knowledge of coding and use it. You can't be copying and pasting everything across because your audience is going to be working in tech, they read about React or whatever, and it's just like, hang on a minute, you're referring to stuff that it doesn't even work like that anymore. We've changed the entire framework of how it references these things. This was released last week, and yet it's talking about stuff as if it was four years old.

Daniel:

So you got to be smart about how you use them, but definitely start playing around with it now and just try and see what you can do and how it can make your life easier. You'd be amazed. It's insane.

Lee:

You're right about the foundational knowledge. I use it, for example, to help me to structure a blog. I'll say, Hey, I want to do a blog on this. These are some of the key points that I want to make. Could you outline it for me and suggest any other points you think I should make? And if I agree with those points, I will then fold that in. And then essentially I'll write most of it myself. I might then feed it the odd paragraph where I'm really struggling to say, how would I say this and this in my really pigeon poor English? And then it would say, Oh, you could say like this. I'm like, Yeah, okay, I'll use that. So I can formulate a blog. The thing I mainly use it for, though, is stuff like this. So right now at the end of this podcast, it will be transcribed for me. I will throw that then into Chat GPT and say, Give me a summary of this, please. Then I'll say, could you outline some potential show notes for it? T hen I can edit those down. That's saving me hours because show notes...

Lee:

Well, my show notes were terrible back in the day because I just had no time. And then nowadays, show notes are great, but they take me ages. However, with something like Chat GPT, it does allow me, again, using its foundation knowledge, it's something that we've created and then we can lay that out. I'm just so sick of seeing on the internet people like, Oh, this is amazing. You can write a book with Chat GPT on any subject you want. I'm like, I don't think you can write a book on anything you want. And it's going to repeat itself an awful lot.

Daniel:

Some of the stuff is pretty cool where they're writing children's or young adult fantasy novels and they're writing an entire series of books. I think as well, people, what's the return rate and stuff on it? People churning and asking for their money back and whatever else. Some people are terrible writers. It might be better than some of the stuff I've already read. I just had a great idea. I wonder if I could even use it for schema. We were talking about on the other show. I wonder if I could say, hey, do FAQ how to an author schema for me for this article, add in line breaks and things like that and see if it will just sort it all out for me because it takes 40 minutes to do those things. I wonder if I could just do it. I bet.

Lee:

You would tenor it can.

Daniel:

Yeah, I bet you. It would be much easier and things like that. I'm literally going to write a note for that actually because that might save me. 

Lee:

We look forward to the YouTube video that you're going to do.

Daniel:

How I made $40 million in only three minutes working at home. And the blog.

Lee:

Post that's going to support it with the accompanying Chat GPT course that would...

Daniel:

For this article that I'm running tomorrow, our entire manifesto thing that we're talking about is the crux of it is, spoilers for people who are going to read the article, but you got to use it with the skill set. You can't just have one or the other. But if you start learning it at the same time as a pair programmer, it's going to be absolutely massive for you going forward, like GitHub copilot and stuff like that. That's going to be absolutely huge. And so in the future now, all content, all courses, all languages, we're getting all of our teachers to learn the Chat GPT and so on, and how they can actually make it easier for students. So it's like, Okay, build this thing, because in React, we create an entire copy of Netflix, basically, our own version of it. How could we shortcut some of this with the AI? How do we do this? How do we do this? What questions can we ask so that we can start making that simpler? I think it's going to be huge for the future and the people that are just not using it. It's not like NFTs and crypto or whatever like that.

Daniel:

Crypto is going to still be around, but it's not one of these things where it's just going to trend and then drop off. It may do, but the people who still use it, man, they're going to be laughing compared to everyone else out there. They're going to get so much more done and so much more results.

Lee:

So much more due diligence. I can never say that. I know, right? Do you get that? 

Daniel:

I am covered in bruises. I am covered in bruises right now in my neck and stuff. I was on the phone for 15 minutes before the call and I was just like... By the way.

Lee:

Your old British accent just came through then when you were like, I'm covered in... Oh, wow. 

Daniel:

Covered in bruises.

Lee:

I'm covered in bruises. Terrible. I don't think you're ever from Yorkshire, but anyway. I lived in Yorkshire. Oh, did you? Oh, well, then you.

Daniel:

Were all right. I'll let you off. In Sheffield, I went to school.

Lee:

School in sheffield? Did engineering. My brother's from Bradford, so I just don't rode. Lovely. Lovely. We'll put subtitles in for the Americans. Thank you so much. Well, we've now covered off the algorithm thing. This podcast is now going to go viral because we talked about AI and Chat GPT, even though the main focus was obviously also on, Hey, if you're running an agency and you're stressed out, there are other alternatives as well. You don't have to keep dipping the agency drum all the time, dipping the drum, whatever. But there are other options. Here's a guy who's had some great fun exploring other options, doing a contract with an incredible company, and finding time to do that thing, and lots more. Of course, recently, we've all discovered the benefits of using AI as well, which is great to help us with our foundational knowledge create even better work more efficiently and faster. There are definitely benefits there. Folks, please be sure to subscribe to this YouTube channel if you're watching us on YouTube. That would be great. Let us know in the comments. He's pointing. Let us know as well in the comments below what your biggest takeaways from this were.

Lee:

How are you managing agency life? If you got out of agency life, how did you get out of agency life? And of course, talk about Chat GPT down there to help the algorithm. And the same if you're listening to the podcast, just go to the show notes, click on the link in the show notes and come and join the comment section over there as well. Daniel, what's the best way for us to connect with you? And then we'll kick you off the show. 

Daniel:

Leave me alone. No, honestly, you can follow me on Twitter @InboundAscend. But like I say this, it's mainly cat photos or bunny photos, things like that because we have a house bunny who runs around. Nice. So I share blog posts and stuff on there, but that's it really, like Twitter.

Lee:

No worries, folks. We will put a link to Twitter. Also, a little call out for me, please follow me on Twitter, @trailblazerfm, I took a break from social media, deactivated my Twitter account, not realising that they would then delete it. So I lost all of you, thousands of followers. I think I'm at 80 followers at the moment, which is great. So just give a poor guy, give me some help. I feel very underwhelmed whenever I look at my Twitter followers right now, even though I shouldn't be about the numbers, but eight years and then you lose it all. It's just, it sucks.

Daniel:

Anyway, folks, like, Oh, yeah, go for it. Social media is just, yeah. I think I run in paid ads and stuff. I've done that for years, but my Facebook follower was like 40 people because it's like, Where is it driving metrics and channels? So you don't feel like you have to chase the metrics there if they don't do it for you.

Lee:

But Twitter was the most fun. So I'm having fun with it again. And I will release my course. If I can get 3,000 followers in three months, then totally I'm going to do a course about it. I'm joking. Don't worry about it. All right, folks, thanks for listening. Thanks for watching. Daniel, thanks for being on your allege. Take care. Bye. Bye.