34:6 The benefits of internships

Lee Matthew Jackson:
Welcome to the Agency Trailblazer Podcast. My name is Lee Matthew Jackson. And on today’s show, we have Samantha Fairbrother . How are you Samantha?

Samantha Fairbrother:
Very good. Thank you.

Lee Matthew Jackson:
Now then, just for the record, should it be Sam for the rest of this call or Samantha?

Samantha Fairbrother:
Sam.

Lee Matthew Jackson:
Sam. Okay. Let’s redo that. It’s Sam Fairbrother . Folks. If you don’t know who Sam is, then please be sure to check out the show notes, because we’re going to put all of the relevant, magical links, including website and social media profiles. She is the founder of TernHeads, and instead of me butchering an introduction, why don’t we hear from you Sam, and let us know a little bit about yourself, your project that you’re running with TernHeads, and also maybe throw in a few extra things like your favourite drink or pastimes or hobbies.

Samantha Fairbrother:
Okay. Yeah, sure. Hi, I’m Sam. I am actually a full time and senior graphic designer for a branding and packaging agency in London. And basically for the last eight years or so, I’ve been the intern mentor at the agency. So I’m in charge of finding, interviewing, booking in, and then mentoring the interns while they’re actually with us, as well as obviously giving them their jobs to do while they’re there and just being their liaison if you like, throughout their internship.

Samantha Fairbrother:
But basically through doing that for the last few years, I’ve really noticed the struggles that they come up against really. And it does seem very much now, interns have to pretty much work for free for nearly two years, in order to find the right place, right time and to get a job these days, which is obviously really, really difficult. It just got me thinking and I’ve just started this little side hustle, Full TernHeads, which aims to help three parties.

Samantha Fairbrother:
So it will help students and graduates. It will help educators and it’ll also help businesses as well. So it’ll be a one stop shop platform where everyone can upload their work, create a little profile for themselves and their network. So allow students to upload their portfolios in a space where it’s all people in the same situation. So obviously there are portfolio websites out there, but students will be uploading their work next to someone who will be in the industry for 20 years. So it takes that intimidation out of it, I guess.

Samantha Fairbrother:
And you’re amongst your peers and your work’s not perfect. You can show your workings, it’s a raw talent platform. And in the same instance, the educators can then showcase their students work. They can find industry professionals to come in, maybe do some workshops, collaborate on some projects, share some tips with their students and make it easier to bridge that gap between education and industry. Because obviously the way you’re taught in education isn’t necessarily how things work in the real world.

Lee Matthew Jackson:
No, that makes sense. Well, what we’re going to do is we’re going to unpack more about TernHeads over the course of this, but also we’d love to jump in a time machine as well and go back into your university days and your process. But before we do that, I think it’s really important to know, if you were having a stress day and you were going to sit down and relax, what’s the drink you would recommend I had?

Samantha Fairbrother:
I think, I would just say, a glass of white wine.

Lee Matthew Jackson:
I am with you there. That’s perfect. Thank you very much. So folks, if you’ve had a stressful day, you heard it here first, it’s from Samantha, go grab yourself a nice glass of white wine and relax. Let’s go and jump in that time machine. Once people are drinking that lovely glass of white wine. And can we go back to university? You said you’d spent your early life building things, creating things, solving problems, et cetera. And then you went to university. At what point in that, did you recognise what your future career was going to be and how did they recommend your process of getting into that career be?

Samantha Fairbrother:
I was one of the kids that used to watch Blue Peter, I built Tracy Island, all that jazz.

Lee Matthew Jackson:
So did I. I remember they said, right, this is the equipment you need for next week. Did you collect everything?

Samantha Fairbrother:
Oh, yeah.

Lee Matthew Jackson:
It was amazing, wasn’t it?

Samantha Fairbrother:
Yeah, and we even collected the, I think Kellogg’s Corn flakes, did all the Thunderbirds, vehicles and everything. So me and my sister collected all of those and we put them into Tracy Island once we’ve made it.

Lee Matthew Jackson:
That’s so cool.

Samantha Fairbrother:
So that’s where I started, I was always making cards, presents, all sorts of things. So I’ve always loved art and graphics all through school and then college. I had a really great college tutor at Southend college called Tammy Ellis. And she really pushed me to apply for university. I hadn’t really thought about it at the time, but I’m so glad that I did. And I ended up going to UCA in Farnham, University for the Creative Arts. And I did a graphic design, graphic communication BA.

Samantha Fairbrother:
It was just such a good course, because obviously graphics is such a massive spectrum of lots of different skills and specialisations. So year one, you do everything, year two, you pick two pathways to carry on with, and then in your third year you pick one. So it just really helped, that structure really helped just funnel me literally into a job title.

Samantha Fairbrother:
And again had just amazing tutor there, Catherine Slade Brooking, she just really guided us all through the processes and things. I love the mentality, getting into people’s heads about why people buy the things they buy and choose the brands they choose and things like that. I’ve always loved the psychology behind that.

Lee Matthew Jackson:
And then at what point did they encourage you, because you started yourself, didn’t you as an intern, at what point was that encouraged and how did you go about finding the internship?

Samantha Fairbrother:
So they really started pushing that in second year and it was just a case of researching some companies. It was nerve wracking and you didn’t really know what you were doing or where to start, but we were really lucky, in that we had a lot of agencies come in and actually tell us a little bit about what they do as a company, how they approach briefs, how they deal with clients, all that kind of thing, which was really great, because it did put what you were learning in your classes at university, into context in the working world.

Samantha Fairbrother:
And it was actually off the back of that, doing one of those workshops that Mark Link, who was working at Ziggurat at the time, actually offered me an interview, off the back of that workshop. And then I ended up doing three internships there in total. I did one in my second year. I went back in my third year and then I went back after I graduated, which was just so good. I really can’t get across how important I think internships are, because it works both ways, for businesses I think it’s such a great way to find that person that is going to join your team and your business, who believes in what you’re trying to do.

Samantha Fairbrother:
They’re so malleable and you can guide them to work in the way that you want them to work for your business and make sure they fit in with your team. And then on the flip side as well, for students and graduates, it’s also a brilliant way for them to figure out what kind of company they want to work for, what kind of team, what kind of clients. So, it’s very give and take really, but I think ultimately the partnerships that come out of it are so much better than just applying to a job ad, going for one interview and then hiring someone.

Lee Matthew Jackson:
Absolutely. And also, I remember myself getting into the IT sector and I would have actually benefited more from an internship, where it was very much learning driven, as opposed to being dumped at a desk and given a list of things to do that I had to work out on my own, which was awful. And I had wished that I had gone into somewhere, where they almost treated me like an apprentice, took me under their wing and gave me all of that.

Lee Matthew Jackson:
I’ve shared before in the past, on the podcast, that my favourite way to employ people into this company is to bring someone in who’s brand new, fresh. They have little to no experience, but they have a hunger to learn. And for example, as of today of recording, it’s Barath’s first day, he joined us today. Woo, lots of random applause, maybe I should put an effect in afterwards. And he’s coming in, he’s going to be learning project management, et cetera. This means we have a fresh slate.

Lee Matthew Jackson:
This is a new employee. He is going to be paid and he’s going to be looked after by us. And he’s going to look after us as well. We’re going to teach them all about project management, he’s going to learn, he already has a hunger, he already has skills that he can apply. So we’re going to get to benefit from that, it’s a great value exchange. And at the same time, he’s getting the experience that he could then use either in a future career or use to then stay with us for the next 20 years and rock agency life with us. I’m not sure what’s going to happen, but I do love the idea of bringing in someone fresh with very limited experience, but who really wants to learn.

Lee Matthew Jackson:
And I don’t mean limited talent. I just mean the actual experience, because you are clearly a talented designer who then needed to go somewhere to I guess, learn the ropes. Now, internships, unfortunately, especially in the USA are usually lumped in together with the word free. And I don’t like that. And I don’t think you that either. And I would love to just address the elephant in the room together.

Lee Matthew Jackson:
So for you yourself, I presume your initial internships during your coursework were potentially unpaid. Did you then take an unpaid internship after that or how did all that work and how can companies avoid or why should companies avoid free internships, I guess, as another question lumped into that?

Samantha Fairbrother:
When I was still studying, I think all my internships, I actually only got travel and lunch money, basically. They just covered your expenses, I guess. I just feel over the years, I think it’s almost got a little bit worse. And I think because, there’s more jobs in design just purely because the industry itself has massively grown and digital is obviously the fastest growing sector in design. I just think, it feels like it’s getting to the point where, you are only successful, if you can afford to work for free for two years.

Samantha Fairbrother:
And then it’s like, what effect does that have on diversity? Is it only the kids who are graduating, whose families can actually support them through that time, that will end up getting the jobs? What about all the talented people who can’t do that, who can’t fund themselves through that and have to have a job at the same time as trying to find a job in what they really want to do. So I think, it supports the next generation of designers. It supports the design industry in general, because it would hopefully mean that a lot more students would stay in the UK, the best designers would stick around in UK design agencies and businesses.

Samantha Fairbrother:
And it also means that you forget diversity up as well, at the end of the day, you’re designing for an audience. And if you haven’t got anyone in that audience, in your design team, it makes it harder for you to be successful in that. I think, it’s like you need to reflect the world out there for what you’re designed for.

Lee Matthew Jackson:
Just as an agency owner as well. Thinking of it on the flip side, you may be worried about paying an intern because you’re thinking, well, surely I could get them for free, et cetera. But, like you’ve said Sam, that limits you to the people who can self fund and that actually, it makes the internship pool for you as an agency, very, very small. And you’re missing out on some amazing talents. People who have taught themselves design in their bedroom as kids and are absolutely amazing and just need a chance.

Lee Matthew Jackson:
So I really, really do believe that internships should absolutely be paid. Of course, we’re not talking about high-flying salaries, because we recognise that salaries have to reflect the level of skill, et cetera. But also you have to recognise that people need to eat. People need to put food on the table, et cetera. And I really don’t think these paid internships are very fair, I know that they’re kind of passion, but bear of mind as well, is pitching for work.

Lee Matthew Jackson:
I don’t know whether you’ve any thoughts on that, but design agencies having to jump into a pitch and they’re all pitching for a 10K project and they might spend a whole week outputting amazing design and bleeding themselves for this 10K and then they don’t get selected anyway. And it’s just heartbreaking seeing things like that happen as well in our industry. It’s a bit off topic, but have you any experiences with that?

Samantha Fairbrother:
No, absolutely. It is a similar kind of thing though, because I know the agency I work for, Pemberton Whitefield, we do not do free pitches for that reason. We’ve got 30 years experience. We know what we’re doing and we don’t need to pitch for free. We say, well, you either want to work with us or you don’t, we’re not going to do some work for free. It’s just not fair. So it’s a similar thing when you think, these students have been training really, really hard for at least three years and they’ve come out of that with, nearly 40,000 pounds of debt.

Samantha Fairbrother:
These are not kids straight out of school. They’ve been to university, they’ve learnt these skills and they are driven and they’re ready to do work for your company, that you’re going to make money out of.

Lee Matthew Jackson:
Absolutely.

Samantha Fairbrother:
At the end of the day, so they’re contributing to your company and the projects that you have. So they do deserve to be financially compensated for that.

Lee Matthew Jackson:
Bridge. No one can see, because this is a podcast, but I’m nearly fainting with how vigorously I’m nodding my head right now. Absolutely. I love the apprenticeship programme here in the UK. We’ve got a global audience, so we have an apprenticeship scheme here and that’s how Larissa came to work with us. She had an interest in web development and web design and she joined us when she was 17 years old. She’s now been with us for five years.

Lee Matthew Jackson:
She’s growing her own family as well, which is awesome. So she had a baby three months ago who is absolutely adorable. So she’s part of our family, both within the agency and also within our actual family. And she came in, she was paid from the get go, and she has blossomed as a designer and as a developer over the last five years. I can’t imagine how it would have gone if we’d have somehow taken advantage of some sort of free internship where she would have come in.

Lee Matthew Jackson:
I don’t know how motivated she would have remained over maybe that first six months to a year, because for her, she still needed to pay rent, et cetera, and find ways of surviving. And so we knew that by bringing her on, by paying her a salary, et cetera, we were going to be able to mould this individual into someone who would work really well with us. She’s proven, she had the opportunity to leave after a year and a half, and she didn’t want to go and she’s, so far so good, doesn’t ever want to leave, which is nice. So, it does work.

Samantha Fairbrother:
Absolutely. Yeah. I feel at our, I would say about, probably 80% of the staff have been hired off the back of work placements and we’ve had some pretty bad experiences with recruiters and hiring people, because we just needed to hire someone quickly. It’s never really worked out well. I do feel like, it is quite an important sort of step to take really. And it does work for both sides, at the end of the day, even just paying an intern minimum wage for a few months or a few weeks, you do quickly get to know that person and know if they’re going to be a good fit for your company.

Samantha Fairbrother:
And if it doesn’t work out, then at least, that intern has got that experience, maybe got a little bit more work for their portfolio and they can go on to the next place and hopefully have more success there. It does definitely work both ways and it just helps you find the right people for your company.

Lee Matthew Jackson:
I’ve got a story that you probably recognise. And I imagine many people listening will recognise this story. What you’ve described there is, it costs money for a new intern and it takes time. That is true. But we have the opposite. We at once went to hire a designer, we needed them desperately, because we’d won a new contract, and we needed both an artworker and a designer. We went to a specialist recruiter, the recruiter managed to find someone, last minute, they needed a 50 grand salary. So we were paying 50 grand to this guy who came, joined our company.

Lee Matthew Jackson:
He actually came with a massive chip on his shoulder, but we were desperate. So we were just putting up with the way he was and how rude he was, equally, we had to pay the phenomenal fee. I think it was seven or 10 grand, which we had to negotiate down at the time, because we hadn’t understood the contract right. And we were arguing the one on mute point, because for cashflow, we were struggling at the time as well.

Lee Matthew Jackson:
So we were paying thousands of pounds, just to have employed him from this recruitment agency. And then within three months, he left anyway. Based on the contract from the recruitment agency, there was no recourse. We couldn’t get any of that money back. So that was just an example of a complete nightmare, hire versus what we’ve always tended to do. Pretty much since then, that was the last point we ever did it, which has been bringing on interns and then building them up from there.

Samantha Fairbrother:
Yeah. I guess, that is the trade off. It’s almost like time versus money.

Lee Matthew Jackson:
I sometimes think time, as in taking your time is far more cost effective in the long run, because it’s going to keep paying dividends. I would love to hear some top tips from yourself on hiring an intern. So I think we’ve probably convinced already a few agency owners listening right now, that they have got a platform that they can bring people in and help them blossom. And they recognise the value of having an intern join them and grow within their business.

Lee Matthew Jackson:
Are there are a few tips that you would give to potential employers, agency owners around the world when they are looking for an internship, hiring tips, the way to go find them or what to look for, what questions to ask, anything like that, maybe two or three off the top of your head would be wonderful.

Samantha Fairbrother:
Okay. Sure. I guess, the first one would probably be, that it’s good to, on your company website, if you indicate who your designated person might be, or the emails from students to go to, just to make sure that they end up with the right person and you don’t get a lot of emails going to random people in your office. So if you designate a mentor and have their email or their contact details. The second would be, definitely do an interview with them, before you get them in on a placement. We find that two weeks is usually a good start point. So get them in for two weeks, see how it goes, and then you can always extend it after that.

Samantha Fairbrother:
Another one would be, we actually have a welcome pack that we designed for our interns, which we leave on their desk for when they come in. Because obviously you’re this alongside your day job. So sometimes you go in and you think, Oh God, the intern is in this morning, I’ve completely forgotten. I haven’t got anything to give them yet. We thought this brief was coming in, it hasn’t yet.

Samantha Fairbrother:
You can at least give them this welcome pack. It’ll show them where everybody sits in the office, what their names are. Maybe a little picture of them. We’ve got the boring stuff, like our filing system, how to label files and where to save them. And then we’ve also got things like, nearby cafes and places to get some lunch, where the nearest pubs are and that kind of stuff. So, at least they can sit down for half an hour, have a read through that, while you’re scrambling around trying to find something for them to do.

Lee Matthew Jackson:
So far folks, we’ve learned about Samantha, we’ve learned about her journey into the business, she works in through internship. We’ve also talked about some top tips on hiring an intern and right at the very beginning, Samantha shared about TernHeads. I’ve been calling you Samantha. I mean, Sam, I’d really love to learn more therefore about Turn head. So you founded that, I believe last year, you’re working with Tom Amos, I believe to get this off the ground. He’s one of our fellow community members. So a massive shout out to Tom. Could you let us know then, a little bit more about the programme, how people, if they are interns or potential interns can get involved as well as how agencies could get involved as well to support the project?

Samantha Fairbrother:
Yeah, absolutely. So we have a micro site up at the moment at www.ternheads.com, where we’re basically just outlining what TernHeads is and then you can sign up to the launch group. There’s also a blog there. So we’re sort of starting to upload some interviews with people from all kinds of different sectors and different levels of experience as well. So people who are six months in the job, a year in the job, or 10 years in the job, to give a bit of a broader spectrum of insight from that. And then we’re hoping that the full site will actually go live or at least early access at the beginning of August.

Lee Matthew Jackson:
So, is that Tom that’s building that? Isn’t it?

Samantha Fairbrother:
Yes, so Tom-

Lee Matthew Jackson:
No pressure Tom. The entire community now knows you.

Samantha Fairbrother:
I did actually ask him just in case I got him into some trouble with his deadlines. So, Tom, early access. August.

Lee Matthew Jackson:
Yeah, man, come on mate. It’s already up. We’re waiting.

Samantha Fairbrother:
So if anybody’s interested in testing out the site for us and just being involved in that initial group to get things off the ground, really, and then we’ll push it out to a wider audience, and hopefully get lots of signups for lots of networking and advice swapping and opportunities.

Lee Matthew Jackson:
What I really love about the idea here, is that, you’ve recognised that the design industry is growing rapidly. There is also a problem with the cost of entry, dramatically reducing, especially with services like Fiverr, although they are the in themselves, trying to turn that around, by ensuring that people can actually now charge more rather than just a Fiver. But you have this really, really saturated, busy design industry and you have all sorts of people coming in and it’s really hard to know where to go.

Lee Matthew Jackson:
And especially with that cost of entry coming down, a lot of people are expected to work for free, if not peanuts, hardly any money. So what you’re building here I believe is a really, really exciting platform that is going to educate agency owners and support them and also support interns coming in and finding the right place, not only learning from each other, but also finding the right agencies to partner with in the future.

Lee Matthew Jackson:
So I’m really, really excited. We, as a podcast, absolutely are 100% behind you and we’ll be following your journey. So please expect more invites. But also folks, if you would to ask Samantha, sorry, Sam, I got to stop doing that, because your name is written Samantha, right in front of me. If you would to ask Sam any questions, we are doing an ask me anything next week, live in the Facebook group. She even got a real cool microphone, so that she sounds as good as me, but we’re going to do an ask me anything next week.

Lee Matthew Jackson:
We haven’t actually established the date as of this recording, because I’m so disorganised or have we, did I set a date? I think we did, actually. I think I actually popped it on the calendar. Let me double check. You’re like, did we? No, we didn’t. I lied. That’s fine. Right. So there will be a link in the show notes to the live stream that we have planned. That’s going to be inside of the Agency Trailblazer Facebook groups.

Lee Matthew Jackson:
If you’re not aware of that, please go to, trailblazer.fm/group. As I said, all of the other links, Sam’s social media profiles, as well as the micro site for TernHeads, et cetera, will all as well be in the show notes. You can find them either on your podcast player. If you just look in the description or if you go ahead and look at trailblazer.fm, all of the information will be there. Finally, Sam, before we kick you off the show, is it possible to find the best way of connecting with you? And then we should say goodbye.

Samantha Fairbrother:
Yeah, absolutely. So the best way would probably be emailing. So you could email me at sam@ternheads.com. It’s spelled T-E-R-N.

Lee Matthew Jackson:
Perfect. Nice and easy to remember. Sam, you’ve been freaking awesome. I am really excited for next week’s ask me anything and also to follow your journey over the next few years. Thanks for coming on.

Samantha Fairbrother:
Thank you so much.

Lee Matthew Jackson:
All righty, Cheerio.